Footwear / Group Demands

[James I]

Hi all! I have a group trip coming up in the Mt. Reddington area in October. They have this listed for required gear in footwear:

HIKING BOOTS (waterproof, good ankle support and broken in. NO trail-running shoes).

I responded to one of the group leaders with this e-mail:

I had a quick question about footwear, I have a lot of 3 season experience but very limited winter experience. Normally I hike in these NON waterproof boots:
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<div>https://www.sierratradingpost.com/merrell-moab-ventilator-mid-hiking-boots-for-men~p~179ww/?utm_source=GooglePLAs&utm_medium=PaidShopping&utm_term=Merrell_Moab_Ventilator_Mid_Hiking_Boots_For_Men&utm_campaign=PCGOOGLES7&currency=USD&gclid=CjwKCAjwl_PNBRBcEiwA4pplRe2b4n_Y58nguOQVQVk0BFnOTkpxGZ1zY4iVvnWz7gu78Dpe8r3hFhoCYtIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&codes-processed=true</div>
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<div>I also bring a second pair of footwear, for this trip I was actually planning on purchasing a pair of these:</div>
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<div>https://www.zappos.com/p/vivobarefoot-ultra-3-eva-black/product/8953938/color/3?ef_id=WTM6LgAAAIqBxnfx%3A20170916150456%3As</div>
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<div>Is the waterproof part of the required boots necessary or just a suggestion or should I be good to go with the 2 pairs above? In a 3-season hike I just get them wet and let them dry. I get that we’re going into terrain that can act more like February than October in the fall at times so please let me know if this strategy should be altered. Overall I’m very cautious about taking chances- I’d be more than happy to go out and make the investment if this is something that is a true requirement. Thanks again for doing all of this!</div>

<div>To which I got this reply:</div>

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A few things of great importance:

1. My opinion is that those Merrills are not adequate for backpacking, especially not this trip.  You generally need a primary backpacking boot that has a stiff shank (nylon can be ok, it doesn’t have to be full steel) and some decent ankle support.  Those are really light to midweight day hikers and  I do not believe will hold up to the miles you will be putting on them.  You would experience significant foot fatigue with them, especially with the multi day pounding they will receive on our hike.
2. Yes, waterproof (gortex) or VERY water resistant (treated with a spray for nylon, or bees wax, etc. for leather) is required.  With the mileage and elevation we will be regularly putting on our feet you need to do the best at keeping your feet as dry as possible for as long as possible.  They will get wet anyway, even if they are waterproof (either you’ll sweat them wet, or water can go over the top of your boot).  Regardless, waterproof = a must.
3. You can bring those other ultra lightweights for water crossings and knocking around the camp but they will not replace a backpacking boot in any way, shape or form.
4. I think at least a lightweight backpacking (specific) boot is really needed.  That being said you do not have a lot of time to obtain and break them in which concerns me a bit although it’s possible.  You will need to get them and hike a few times, one or more of which should be close to 10 miles over rugged terrain.  It would suck to figure out your boots don’t fit (cause blisters, toe bang, pinching, or a million other things, etc.) after we set out.  PLEASE ADDRESS THIS ASAP 

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<div>Now I was under the impression I was going to get a “Hey so this specific hike needs waterproof for “X” reason” or something a long those lines, but I get the feeling I might just coming up against a different philosophy on footwear and having it imposed on me. Based on being on the AT in this area on a 4-day hike is this demand reasonable? Is this just someone forcing their personal philosophy on me or should I really own a pair of boots like he’s talking about for this kind of hiking?</div>
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<div>I get as a group leader you need to have standards for gear to maintain safety so I’m not even saying I’m not willing to bend- just trying to get a feel for what I’m truly encountering here. I just feel like $200 for a pair of boots I’m only getting to appease one group leader seems over the top if I have plenty of experience in my mid-Merrells.</div>

[James I]

I should add that I did recently complete a 50 mile 4 day hike in these mid-Merrels and my only complaint was wet feet all the time cause of constant beaver dams, something I feel would only be made worse by the type of boot he’s talking about? Granted the elevation demands won’t be as great as they will be here (there will be peak bagging of places like Mt. Reddington)

[Finnegan McBrisket]

So ankle support has been myth-busted for a long time and waterproof isn’t really. I think it’s a good thing when a person in the group provides clear and concise guidance, especially for first timers or newer backpackers. But it sounds like this guide is going a bit too far. If you did decide to get waterproof shoes, I recommend you wear them everyday from here on out. Also, I recommend getting fast drying wool socks if you can.

At the end of the day, you’re responsible for you.

Some good reads on the topic:

• https://andrewskurka.com/2012/why-waterproof-shoes-will-not-keep-your-feet-dry/
• https://andrewskurka.com/2012/minimizing-the-effects-and-aftermath-of-wet-feet/

 

[Bob Shuff]

Curious – who is leading this trip?  Sierra Club or some mountaineering club?  I totally agree this is probably this guys view of what constitutes sufficient footwear, and by BPL standards he/she sounds like he’s 20 years or so behind the times.

I’m no thru-hiker, and I’m at the other end of the country from Mt. Reddington, but I think you will find a lot of support for trail runners on BPL by thru hikers and many weekend warriors.  I’m very comfortable with lightweight – not waterproof trail runners and my trekking poles, and when going with boy scouts I bridge the gap from old leaders to new by saying you can wear boots or shoes – but if you wear shoes you should have trekking poles.

Moab boots would definitely meet my grade as boots.  The only argument I see for waterproof boots is in conjunction with waterproof gaiters and the likelihood of postholing through snow.  Waterproof pants will often show up on the same list of requirements.  Otherwise, I would argue that for stream crossings your just as likely to get your waterproof boots wet from the inside out – and they will take longer to dry.  Does anyone still change shoes for stream crossings, or take your socks off?  I guess it depends if you come to a stream every few hours and will schedule a break there it makes sense.  If you are crossing them regularly, I would be too impatient.

That all being said, the leader does get to decide what is acceptable.  You’ll have to decide if you can reason with him/her or will just tow the line and spend the $ for this trip.  I have a seldom used pair of lightweight waterproof Hanwag boots that I would take on a snowy trip, but that’s few and far between for me.

[Jeff McWilliams]

“Multiday pounding”

What’s the itinerary?  Miles per day?  What do you expect your pack weight to be?  Being a guided trip, are you being asked to carry a lot of heavy group gear?

I’ve hiked in the Adirondack High Peaks area, so I have a decent idea what you may be up against.  I also have those same Merrell boots, and I just did 93 miles along the JMT in them, from Vermillion Valley Resort to Yosemite Valley.  Because I was with a group of people with varying physical abilities, our daily mileage was conservative, averaging 8 miles per day, but we had one or two 10+ mile days.

As the trip leader, I carried more than my share of group gear.  That along with the required use of bear canisters (Mine is the heavy Garcia) gave me a total pack weight around 36 pounds.

My boots felt fine except for the first day or two of my body getting used to the hike.  I carried Crocs for camp, but honestly, I could have left them behind and been okay, and saved myself the hassle of finding a decent way of attaching them to my pack.  I did not take off my Merrells for stream crossings.  I got them wet and kept hiking.

For consistently wet and cooler weather, I would wear Goretex socks with my Merrells.  At least with the socks you can turn them inside out at the end of the day and dry out everything better, and then have dry Goretex socks to put inside your wet/damp boots the following morning.

Here’s a link to the socks I have:

http://www.goreapparel.com/gore-bike-wear/men/accessories/universal-gore-tex-socks/FGTSOS.html?cgid=gbw-men-geartype-accessories-socks&dwvar_FGTSOS_color=9900&start=4

Good luck.  Check back in afterward and let us know how things worked out.

 

 

[James I]

Well when I wrote the initial e-mail it was in regards to ignorance in winter. Winter people start talking about ice axes and snow shoes and that all just feels like an exotic sport to me (it shouldn’t, and I’m going to start mountaineering at some point and time in my life, guaranteed)- but I digress. My point is when we’re talking about being in mountains in October I just thought maybe the initial demand was because of some 4th-season concern.

I have made all the mistakes before with boots and waterproof, I’ve been at this since I was a scout and I’m 36 now. Hell I have a pair of Goretex Salomans in the closet with only like 50 miles on them because they make my feet sweet and provide no real rain protection. I don’t need preaching to there, just trying to make sure before I respond that I’m not doing it from a place of ignorance, like, “Oh yeah, Mt. Reddington is nuts and you need the ankle support and the waterproof works for x reason here and is necessary” or something like that.

So I guess I just need reassuring: Am I cool to respond with the following?

Hi XXX,

Thanks for the response! If there’s no specific winter need with the footwear, in my experience heavier boots cause me more foot problems than they solve, not the least of which they never dry out. Blisters on the trail are my #1 concern and I’ve never been out with a heavy boot even after being broken in where I don’t get painful problems. I believe my pack weight including consumables will be around 21 lbs. so I don’t anticipate undue stress on my ankles from carrying excessive weight. I own a pair of trail runners that are Gore-Tex Salomons that I can bring and use as camp shoes \ in wet conditions if that’s a reasonable compromise. Note this pair of shoes sits in my closet unused BECAUSE they’re waterproof and cause my feet to sweat and be wet the ENTIRE day, so I do have some experience here :).

I really need to knock on wood but I’ve never had footwear cause me ankle problems, but I have had them cause other issues that heavier boots only exacerbate. In my personal experience it’s safer for me in a 3-season environment to hike with what I know but I also respect that as leaders you need to set standards for gear. I completely understand if you need to draw a line here but I do need to evaluate whether or not I can invest somewhere in the $200 range in a piece of equipment I’ll only use for one trip that I feel only creates more problems than it can potentially ever solve.

I completed a 50-mile hike around Cranberry Lake in the Adirondacks last week over 4-days with almost an identical configuration gear wise for what I think is probably similar weather conditions (30s at night). That list can be found here: http://bit.ly/2ykcbxW, note that it’s not 100% identical such as I will be bringing in more water capacity for this trip, we were fortunate to always be within a mile of fresh water on that last trip which obviously won’t be the same here. The heavy boot is the only area where I saw any concern meeting the trips requirements.

I just don’t want to come off as disrespectful or demanding lol. It’s a volunteer-led organization and these are good people setting aside their free time to organize and oversee these things and I don’t want to lose site of that. I’m sure there’s plenty of crap I have strong opinions that I’m wrong about that I hope people don’t come down on me for all the time lol.

[James I]

What’s the itinerary?  Miles per day?  What do you expect your pack weight to be?  Being a guided trip, are you being asked to carry a lot of heavy group gear?

Hoping to be in the 21 lb range personally, they’re grouping some gear together but I think I’ll end up pretty light in the end and maybe hold on to my solo tarp setup cause they say the camp sites are small.

Day 1: 8 mi w/ 3k elevation gain

Day 2: 11 mi w/ 2.7k elevation gain + potential 3.4 mi peak loop

Day 3: 6 mi w/ 1.7k elevation gain

Day 4: 10 mi w/ 2.9k elevation gain

[Jeff McWilliams]

Maybe there’s some really awful talus hopping up those trails, which forces them to be concerned about ankle turning and sore feet.

But 21lb is light!  I think you’d be in really good shape if that’s your total pack weight.

 

[David Thomas]

To reword the leader’s point #1, just a bit:

My opinion is that that trip leader is not adequate for backpacking, especially not this trip.  You generally need a person with flexible thinking and some decent, modern knowledge.  Those are really archaic views to hold in 2017 and I do not believe he will handle the inevitable problems and challenges that the miles will be putting on him.  You would experience significant frustration, especially with the multi day brow-beating and rigid thinking you will receive on your hike.

Flame off.

You’re right to be respectful of the leader’s rules and experience, even if we think (know!) it to be limiting.  Perhaps rephrase your letter to stress YOUR particular issues (even if you have fabricate some) that lead you to your solution.

e.g. “When I’ve used fully waterproof or Goretex shoes, my feet sweat enough to wet out my socks completely.  So I hike in wool and synthetic socks and that works fine for me, even if they stay wet all day.  With breathable shoes, sometimes the socks dry as I wear (or they don’t if the day is rainy, snowy or has lots of stream crossings).  Then, safely in camp, I switch to my dry camp socks, wring out the day-time socks and let them dry a bit, if possible overnight.

I agree that some stiffness in the sole is important on rough ground because light-weight, in-town running shoes leave my feet feeling beat up after getting wrapped around roots and rocks on the trail.  But stiffer-soled trail runners have always given me enough protection for my soles, perhaps in part because I tend to pack very lightly.”

I just can’t turn my snark down enough to respond politely to the whole ankle-support foolishness I’ve been battling for 35 years.  Three words: Nike Lava Dome.  One date: 1981.  A reference: http://www.complex.com/sneakers/2013/05/the-30-most-influential-sneakers-of-all-time/nike-lava-dome

Not that the leader is someone who wants to learn new stuff, but a very strong, simple argument would be to google image search “FKT SOBO NOBO AT PCT CT” and look at what ALL the most experienced and capable hikers are wearing for 2,000 and 3,000 mile trips.

[James I]

The AT is known for kicking you in the face and being giddy while it does it, so there’s that. I remember doing the stretch in Harriman, NY thinking it’d some pretty boring strolling but man did it do its best to send you straight over every hill and squeeze you in between every rock and even make you scale 12′ walls. I later hiked that same stretch on “The Long Path” which parallels the AT by a couple hundred yards for most of it stretches and it takes you along that same terrain as boringly and gently as I would have expected eastern trails to be.

[Paul S.]

That would make me rethink joining the trip. If that’s the attitude toward shoes I can imagine the comments they’d make on your UL kit.  Not the mention adhering to the boot rule could ruin your feet and the trip.

[Bob Moulder]

Can you do the trip on your own? Sounds as if you have enough experience.

While I can appreciate a group leader having some requirements for rank beginners, IMO some allowance should be made for those with a fair amount of experience.

If this is an AMC hike, I have some idea about the mentality. I once got a little lecture from an AMC leader at the top of Slide Mtn about how I was risking my life and the lives of my rescuers by traveling so lightly in the winter… and I wasn’t even associated with her group!

Personally I would find this way of doing things unacceptable and would simply do something else on my own…. far fewer people to please when you’re solo.   ;^)

PS there are some tough stretches on the Long Path, which includes the Devil’s Path in the Catskills. The AT from Wildcat to Elk Pen is a nasty little cuss.

[James I]

That’s the stretch of the AT I’m talking about – noting lemon squeezer and the point with the cliff wall right after hehe. Don’t get me wrong, I love it.

I’d love to look into thru hiking The Long Path though from initial Google searching it sounds like if I’m going to take that time I’d be better off doing something like the JMT.

I don’t want to out the organization. I like the people I meet on these trips. There’s a social aspect and the volunteerism, something I find appealing.

[James I]

I need to reiterate – I’m not looking to bash the organization in any way and I really do appreciate what that leader has done in organizing everything. I don’t feel like I’m being bossed around unreasonably, these are unpaid volunteers doing the best they can, not paid professionals with ego problems.

I was trying to get anonymous advice on how to handle a delicate situation with someone who probably even has more backpacking experience than I do telling me to do something I might know to be bad for me personally and make sure I wasn’t doing it on the wrong footing knowledge-wise.

I’ve been 2 trips so far with this organization and have only met great people. I understand some think poorly of groups like this but they’re getting people out into the wilderness, they always pack out their own trash and additional trash they find at the sites from what I can see. If they have outdated opinions on footwear I’d like to work past it rather than make waves.

[Roger Caffin]

As David wrote:
My opinion is that that trip leader is not adequate for backpacking, especially not this trip. You generally need a person with flexible thinking and some decent, modern knowledge. Those are really archaic views to hold in 2017 and I do not believe he will handle the inevitable problems and challenges that the miles will be putting on him. You would experience significant frustration, especially with the multi day brow-beating and rigid thinking you will receive on your hike.
I agree.

I would be seriously concerned about the leader’s ability to cope under stress. In fact, I would question the wisdom of going on the trip he is leading, as I think there could be problems if things get difficult.

My wife and I both wear light joggers – on long off-track walks here in Australia over really harsh rocky mountain terrain (4+ weeks), on snow shoe trips here under some extreme conditions, and also on many 2 – 3 month-long walking trips in the European Alps. We would never even consider wearing boots in any terrain (well, ski boots maybe!).

You might also note that many very high mountains around the world have been climbed in joggers and crampons. They work with a little adaptation. There is nothing magic about ‘boots’ – just antique pain and $$$.

Boots exist simply because that is what was developed for the soldiers of the European armies hundreds of years ago – chiefly in Italy in fact. They did not have the technology to make modern joggers hundreds of years ago. We have progressed from the horse and cart to cars and planes, and clothing and other gear have similarly advanced in technology and performance.

Pity that poor ‘leader’, stuck in a time-warp of 50 years ago.

Cheers

[James I]

We might be a little extreme here. There are two main leads and it was a co-lead who emphasized the demand. The organization I’m going out with from my understanding the guy who runs this board is also a leader on.

I got PM’d by someone who is a member of the organization, recognized the trip and knows one of the main leads to be a lightweight guy with a lot of experience and not a super heavy traditionalist. Based on his feedback I even replied saying that if they think my footwear is inadequate that I’ll yield to their experience.

I haven’t even gotten a response yet once he opened the discussion up to include the main group leaders. Saying I should back out now is probably a bit over the top.

[Roger Caffin]

I don’t think many of us have tried to tell YOU what YOU should do.
But for sure plenty have told you what THEY would do.

Cheers

[Bob Moulder]

Starts off with

I just feel like $200 for a pair of boots I’m only getting to appease one group leader seems over the top if I have plenty of experience in my mid-Merrells.

Ends up with

Based on his feedback I even replied saying that if they think my footwear is inadequate that I’ll yield to their experience.

Seems it has come full circle in a very short time.   :^)

The thing about this (BPL) crowd is that there are a lot of folks with a lot of experience and they’re WAY beyond letting anybody dictate their footwear. I know I sure as hell wouldn’t.

 

[James I]

Well I have experience, have a system that works and pushed back appropriately. I was approached by an active member here telling me to give the actual leader a chance. I haven’t gotten a response yet. I fully respect everyones opinion here, hell I asked for them. I’m just saying I’m not at the point of pulling the plug. If they respond, “You have no idea what you’re talking about, trail runners are evil, get boots or don’t come” I’ll do exactly as you guys are saying.

These are reasonable people, I’m sure I’ll get a reasonable response. I wouldn’t run trail runners in the arctic, so there’s a line, I’m sure we’d all draw those lines in different places.  I appreciate the input to help me respond though.

[Bob Shuff]

I know in my heart when responding, especially via email, with a long and logical statement of my position, that it often encourages further debate.  I really admire those that can distill a reply into fewer words delivered respectfully.  It is the short cut, so to speak, to the moral high ground.

It sounds like you got there with some advice.  If wish I could do (this) as I say more often.

[Sam C]

I had lived in Maine for many years.  At Mt. Reddington in October you can see highs in the low 70s for a day or two but temps in the high 50s would be more likely.  Overnight lows and even daily highs can be in the upper 20s.   Maine is pretty darn remote with low population.  Don’t expect trails to be maintained, especially in October.  So you’ll likely be bushwhacking at least a part of the way.

For what it’s worth, If I were going on this trip I’d most likely hike in a pair of Keen mids, and likely ones that were not water proof.

[James I]

Honestly I assumed the days would be worse temperature-wise before I actually plugged it into a weather site for myself when this blew up. I didn’t want to be there at 30 degrees during the day dealing with a cold, wet, uninsulated shoe that’s now causing the group problems.

I got a response from these guys which I’m choosing not to share because I feel like some people here are looking to be outraged board warriors. Which is cool cause they do reflect a small part of how I feel.. but I digress. Basically it appears this is the first trip for a winter crew and that one of the leaders only goes out in the winter. On that front they had someone who appears to have the same opinions on footwear as us reply to me and say, “Hey I’m a trail runner girl, I’m wearing waterproof boots on this hike.” They also didn’t lay down the law, just said, “hey, this is why we do this, call me if you have anymore questions.”

It’s overkill for this hike probably, and at those temperatures I’m sure I’ll wear the boot and be like, “Ok, this is stupid, I didn’t even need these slightly.” But at the same time, I can see value in a 4th-season piece of footwear. I never had any illusions of being on the side of a 12k peak in winter conditions in Moab Ventilators and I’m camping with people who do those kinds of trips. Is it really that much of an outrage viewed through that lens?

The woman who reached out to me even said she wears one of the pairs of shoes I’d strongly consider (Salomans run skinny on me though so I probably can’t go this route): https://www.rei.com/product/887312/salomon-x-ultra-winter-cs-waterproof-winter-boots-mens

I got that reasonable response I thought I would. As long as I wasn’t walking out of this with a 3-season only pair of footwear that I’d never use again I feel like I’ve headed off the biggest problem. Maybe I’m buying a viable piece of winter gear that I won’t use this trip but would probably purchase anyways. Look, highs in the 50s with a waterproof shoe isn’t going to be as hot as highs in the 80s when I’ve really had problems with sweat in waterproof shoes.

Look, if I show up and my feet sweat from minute 1 and I get blisters from walking in these + a firmer boot than it’s on them. I’m not going to die and I’m slowing down the group if it gets really bad. I’ve expressed my opinion from my experience, but they’re not trying to tell me I need something I won’t use in the winter + is outdated in the other seasons.

I’m an in-shape 36 yo person who knows how to handle the outdoors going out in October to ME. I’m not an overweight dude looking to knock something off the bucket list on the side of a summit in Pakistan who has never even car camped in his life. Let’s put the “danger” into perspective. In fact, I’d rather go out with a group who says, “we do this, this is why you need x” from experience in the environment we’re going to than someone who is like, “No idea what we’re doing, but your standard 3-season list SHOULD cover it all.” As someone mentioned here, this would be a trip I’d have no problems attempting solo in a typical 3-season environment. “OMG WHAT WILL THESE PEOPLE DO IN AN EMERGENCY” is obvious, they’ll be more cautious and looking for potential issues more so than I would be alone. Ya, that might mean an extra few lbs in shared gear but I’m not going top 30 no matter what they give me and this was never about that.

[Roger Caffin]

A higher law here at BPL, higher than ‘boots are evil’, is
Hike Your Own Hike.
Go for it.

Cheers

[Bob Moulder]

If you ask for opinions you’ll get opinions.  :^)

But this sort of club stuff just ain’t my thang and never has been.

[James I]

At a certain point in my life I realized that when I get to the top of something and have no one to share the view with it becomes that less potent. I’ve made actual friendships with dudes in their 70s and learned a ton from like-minded individuals who approach backpacking with the same philosophy as me. I’ve done shorter days and learned how to enjoy that, I’ve done longer days and learned how to push through it. I have the ability to branch out and do things I’ve always wanted to but didn’t have thousands to put down on that aspect of the hobby just to try it out.

All that and all you need to do is swallow a little bit of your pride.

We’re connecting to a part of humanity that’s been lost by the modern world. That ancient way of living didn’t avoid human socialization. Sure it’s always great to be out alone and I’ll continue to do that but there’s just something about completing an exhausting days of work and sitting down with others who have done the same and talking about non-sense that just make the world right.

[Author]

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