Fat Fleece

Wind shell and insulation are two different things.

Most fleece has extreme breathability. Sometimes that is an advantage, sometimes it is a disadvantage. Agreed that fleece is bulky to pack.

When considering wind shells, don’t automatically assume that a wind shirt is the only solution. I wear a soft shell (OR Ferrosi) whenever the temperature calls for something more than a Summer sun shirt. It is slightly warmer in cold weather and noticeably more breathable than any windshirt I have found (so better in warm weather as well).

I wear that combo down to near freezing, where I add a Summer base. Below freezing I switch to a Winter base. When it is seriously cold I add active insulation (synthetic puffy vest).

Wind shirts do pack smaller and lighter, which makes them superior when you are not wearing them. ;)

Breathability = merino base layer > 100 wt fleece > most windshirts > light down jacket

Sun shirt long sleeve 3.7oz, Airmesh hoodie 4.4oz, windbreaker with hood and kangaroo pocket 4.6oz. Wind stopper gloves ,20° this morning. Terrabone joggers ,army long underwear.lightest weight . My clothing for Reg 8 mile daily walk with 15lb pack. Non breathable rain coat w pit zips and puffy in pack.
thom

I started with a wind shirt and no fleece, but now use a fleece and hardly ever pack a wind shirt.

My previous spring/fall (eastern US, so not at altitude) layering was SS merino wool T-shirt, LS button down, wind shirt, puffy, and rain shell. So cold mornings in the 20s and 30s would start out with the SS T-shirt, LS button down, and wind shirt on (I never hike in a puffy and rarely encounter temps below 20 deg F). But – sometimes I was pretty cold for a while with these layers so I added a 100 wt fleece and ditched the wind shirt. So cold morning starts (with no wind) are now just the SS T-shirt and fleece – which is very comfortable. If it is really cold or windy I might add my rain shell. The fleece comes off pretty quickly as I and the temps warm up. It is also nice in camp at night and early morning to have both a fleece and a puffy to keep warm. I still also bring the LS button down and mostly hike in it over the SS T-shirt at temps from 40-60 deg F.  The LS button down shirt is kind of a wind shirt substitute – also good for bugs and sun.

However, I am not completely satisfied with these layers because I can’t wear them all at the same time – the button down LS shirt is completely incompatible with the fleece, so one or the other is in the pack when it is cool, and when the temps go up I end up in the T-shirt with both the LS shirt and the fleece in the pack. I haven’t found a solution I like to this layering incompatibility – I really like the LS button down and I like having the 100 wt fleece, so for now I have been bringing both and suffer the weight and pack volume penalty.

Dave,

You mention that when it is cold and windy you add the rain shell over the fleece. But you got rid of the wind shirt because it lacked warmth on colder days. Did you try the rain shell over the wind shirt ever and, if so, what was your experience?

I don’t think I ever used the rain shell over the wind shirt. I am sure it would add some warmth.

And actually – although I wrote that I might add the rain shell if really cold or windy –  after some thinking I don’t actually recall ever doing this (rain shell over a fleece) when hiking if it was not also pretty cold with rain or snow. Only when in camp or on a rest break with cold wind.

I should clarify that although I said spring/fall in eastern US, I have also used the same layering in western mountains in August and September and it worked OK. And actually the only time I recall wearing the rain shell over the fleece was in September in the Wind River Range with temps in the 30s and rain/snow mix.

I think your idea of the wind shirt to replace the fleece probably works OK for many conditions. Like I said – that used to be my layering system. But on cold mornings, unless starting with a big climb, I was always cold for longer than I wanted to be so I added the fleece. Once I did that I found myself almost never using the wind shirt so I stopped bringing it.

Your post has me pondering whether I would be better with a light sun hoody and a wind shirt vs the fleece for a system like this: SS T-shirt – LS sun hoody – wind shirt – puffy – rain shell. A wind shirt plus sun hoody probably weighs about the same as a 100 wt fleece, and likely takes up less volume.  But at the moment I don’t own a sun hoody or wind shirt so I will probably keep on as I am.

you only need one rain shell or wind shirt or whatever on the outside surface to block wind and rain

a fabric layer inside is a heavy way to get insulation.  Fleece is a little better but still heavy.  Synthetic insulation like apex is better than that.  Down is the best but it doesn’t handle wet very good.

so – base layer, synthetic layer, down layer if it’s very cold and you’re not exerting too much, outer layer that blocks wind and rain

David,

One expedient that I hit upon last month on a cold morning when I hadn’t brought my fleece (probably the first subconscious step to eliminating the fleece altogether) but had brought a light down jacket was wearing the down jacket over the base layer and shirt in the morning until I warmed up 20 minutes later. Normally I try to start off a little under dressed in the morning and walk into warmth, but that was a particularly cold morning. The down jacket was off well before any moisture came into play. Just a thought as you find your happy medium. I have an abiding aversion to redundancy in temperate climes and at times one feels the overlap between the warmth of a down jacket and fleece. True, down degrades with sweat, but if one can utilize it as a temporary expedient as described above before sweating, the case for fleece becomes tenuous.

While we’re on the subject, back in the 70’s we called them windbreakers. Is a wind shirt something entirely different, or just marketing spin? Maybe I missed something these last few decades.

I tend to base my layer choices on what I expect temps to be first thing in the morning. If above freezing a 150g wt merino t-shirt, an SUL windshirt (currently a paty Houdini) and a light puffy. If below freezing the t-shirt swaps for long sleeves and I add a 100wt fleece.

I am thinking ditching the t-shirt and going with sleeves year round for sun protection. The Houdini at 3oz has been a great piece and is often used at rest breaks.

back in the 70’s we called them windbreakers. Is a wind shirt something entirely different…?

A wind shirt is typically lighter, like 3-7 oz range. “Windbreaker”, like “wind shell”, are more general terms; they include windshirts, soft shells (about a pound), and casual-wear garments (one to two pounds).

I mentioned that soft shells can outperform windshirts above. A budget windbreaker is the Propper Unlined Packable Windshirt. It weighs 14-ish oz, which I would call a soft shell rather than a windshirt. It’s pretty good for the price.

As several people point out above, down and synthetic insulations are lighter, warmer, and pack smaller than fleece. The tradeoff is that most fleece breathes ferociously, while down and synthetic puffies breathe somewhat less. Synthetic “active insulation” often maximizes the breathability, although will never be as breathable as fleece.

An in-between garment is a vest, which has most of the benefits of puffies while ventilating better. I think of a vest as having “giant pit zips”.

Another in-between garment is the long-sleeve button shirt that David mentioned. I use a Columbia Silver Ridge Lite shirt for that. It is basically a sun shirt, but has just enough wind resistance to be credibly warm over a Summer-weight base layer in mild conditions.

There is some overlap in conditions that can be served by fleece or a wind shell. The fleece will almost always be more breathable while the wind shell will block wind better. Tradeoffs.

The way that you asked your original question makes it difficult to answer directly. If you want the smallest and lightest size when not wearing the garment, then a windshirt is that. If you want the most breathable garment, then fleece. Windshirt over fleece (or fleece over windshirt) will work at lower temperatures than either alone. A good soft shell can do the same thing as a windshirt while being more breathable.

In the end, it depends on your priorities and maybe the weather:

• Is it windy today? Windshirt or soft shell.
• Chilly with less wind? Fleece.
• Cold AND windy? Both.
• Maybe you want a backup wind garment in your pack? Windshirt.
• A more versatile garment is a good soft shell; at cost of a few ounces and some pack size.

There is no perfect; only tradeoffs.

You’re only going to discover your preference by trying.

Oh, one more tip: Shells with loose fit encourage air movement for better ventilation when you’re working up a sweat. Some people prefer a snugger fit for climbing or high winds, but a loose fit is more versatile.

EDIT: I should also mention that I went through a similar thought exercise last year when trying to figure out how a grid fleece might fit into my wardrobe. It was difficult because grid fleece, like light fleece, works extremely well in some conditions. In the end, I decided that the soft shell was more versatile while minimizing the number of bulky garments that I have to pack. But it was a close call. I can certainly understand people who prefer fleece when the wind is not howling.

So the only fleece that I use now is base layers; super-thin for three seasons, and Airmesh or Alpha Direct for Winter.

EDIT 2: In the Summer, I carry a super-light and compact windshirt as backup. The soft shell is more for cooler days; Autumn, Winter, and Spring.

Thank you Bill and others for the comprehensive answers. I will continue experimenting and see what works.

With respect to:

“Is it windy today? Windshirt or soft shell. Chilly with less wind? Fleece. Cold AND windy? Both.”

In terms of trade offs, the crux of the matter seems to be whether, in a wish to reduce weight, bulk, and pieces, the latter two scenarios can be handled by the light down jacket (one is already carrying) as a temporary expedient before sweat enters the picture. I walk fairly steady, not fast and usually in no rush, so modulate speed largely based on body moisture. One thing I’ve noticed is that in freezing temperatures, colder than the ones described in the original post, one needs very few layers when moving along. I recall from winter cycling days we could take things down to about 15 F (-10 C) with just a base layer and a shell as long as we were moving. Like others, I don’t normally walk in down, but would be interested to see how long one could push down, and, if so, how easily it would dry.

whether … the latter two scenarios can be handled by the light down jacket (one is already carrying) … I … modulate speed largely based on body moisture.

You can certainly do that. A down jacket is usually a windbreaker with insulation between the layers. The only question is whether or not you might prefer your fleece rather than the down jacket (because the fleece breathes better).

we could take things down to about 15 F (-10 C) with just a base layer and a shell as long as we were moving.

Yes, I do that. My Winter base is an Airmesh half-zip with my soft shell over it. It’s maybe about the same warmth as a mid-weight fleece (but weighs 5oz). That works down to the high teens before I need a mid layer; as long as I am moving.

If I were to use a windshirt instead of the soft shell, then I would need a mid layer at a few degrees higher temperature. Some of that is due to the slightly heavier fabric of the soft shell; another part is because my soft shell fits loose (traps more air) than my windshirts. The difference is maybe 5-10 degrees F.

In other words, you may still use your fleece; just at cooler temperatures. Or maybe not. You will have to try it to know for sure.

If you wear size Large or smaller, then you could experiment with a Dooy Sun shirt for $20. It’s very light and highly breathable and won’t break the bank while you test it. It comes in Asian sizes which are about two sizes smaller than American sizes. It may not stop wind as well as other windshirts, but it is probably as breathable as you are likely to find short of a soft shell. (If “buy once cry once” is more your style, then there are plenty of other windshirts.)

Just a comment on the Dooy. I think they fixed the sizes. I bought a md. recently and it fits true to size with enough space for an alpha layer under. So size up to wear a base and a mid under like with rain gear but otherwise seems fine to me. As with all low cost wear QC and sizing could vary but I bought two and both have been plenty big for me.

My 90g alpha and a lightweight windshirt = 7.1 oz. My lightest cheap fleece is around 8 0z. Fleece is nice in wet weather.  No experience with alpha in rainy weather. Depends on where you go hiking. Nothing is perfect.