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Esbit stoves for small water boils?


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Home Forums Scouting Philmont Esbit stoves for small water boils?

Viewing 18 posts - 1 through 18 (of 18 total)
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  • #3454272
    AT Grimaldi
    Spectator

    @atgrimaldi

    Locale: East Bay

    I have a special diet and as such, won’t be eating the Philfood with the rest of the crew.  Mine will most likely be from PackIt Gourmet.  Also, I’d like to be able to have a cup of joe on command and offer them to the other advisers in the trek.

    My question is….will Philmont allow me to have an Esbit stove for my cooking needs, separate from the stove and patrol method the rest of the crew is conducting.

    – AT Grimaldi

    #3454309
    Bruce Kolkebeck
    BPL Member

    @cjcanoe

    Locale: Uhwarrie National Forest

    Are you planning on providing your own food or will you use some provided by Philmont? It makes a big difference. After watching folks utilize esbit/alcohol stoves to different results on the AT I can tell you that certain foods just won’t re-hydrate without a good boil. If there’s a way you can share some boiling water from the pot you’d be best advised to do that.

    In 2010 we hiked with a crew that had a member who asked Philmont to deliver his personal food to each resupply point. Not one of his meals made it to him the entire trek. I’m not sure how you get them to deliver it but you may want to double check.

     

    BK

     

     

     

     

    #3454422
    William Harmon
    BPL Member

    @witlain

    Locale: Midwest

    As a Philmont Ranger for the past 2 summers I can give my advice. However, that doesn’t necessarily reflect the policies and rules of Philmont itself.

    The 2017 Guidebook to Adventure states under the Backpacking Stoves section (page 15) that individual stoves for hot drinks are acceptable. While it doesn’t directly state that they are permitted for separate Special Foods meals, I have allowed crews to take a separate stove to keep dinner items separate due mostly to allergies. That section says that Biofuel stoves are not permitted due to changing fire restrictions, so you could go into or out of a fire ban just within the 7 or 12 days you’re on the trail. That section doesn’t include anything about Esbit stoves. However, I believe they resemble on “open flame” more than an actual stove i.e., no separate fuel that can easily be cut off, so I would assume they wouldn’t be permitted. That is simply my individual opinion so I would contact Philmont at [email protected]  or (575) 376-2281 so you can be put in touch with the upper leadership of the Ranch.

    That’s unfortunate that that individual’s special meals weren’t able to get to them. You will separate your individual meals by day of the trek and then they will be delivered to the same commissary camps where the rest of your crew will receive their food. So you will have the same food ration time lengths as the rest of your crew. If the roads are difficult to drive through, it can make it more difficult for the Ranch to get your food from Base Camp out to each necessary camp. I hope that helps and have fun!

    #3469747
    DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST
    Spectator

    @zelph2

    Ranger Hamon, do you think this type alcohol stove with shut off valve could get approved by Philmont if I were to take one to the Ranch and present it to the upper leadership?

    YouTube video

    #3469763
    William Harmon
    BPL Member

    @witlain

    Locale: Midwest

    I can’t say for sure whether or not that stove would get approved; however, based on personal opinion only, I would say it’s worth bringing to Philmont to ask about it. Depending on how you’re traveling, you will be given lockers in Base Camp (unless you’re traveling by car and then you store things in your car) so you can store any gear you don’t need or can’t take into the backcountry. I would say, at least, bring the stove to Philmont to ask about it and then, if it doesn’t get approved, store it in Base Camp while you’re on the trail. IMO I think it would be fine because it might still be an “open flame” but it does have a “shut-off valve” so it should be fine. However, that’s is strictly a personal opinion, which doesn’t necessarily reflect that of the Ranch, so you would still need to get it approved by the Ranch itself, regardless of my personal opinion. You could try contacting Philmont, likely at [email protected], to try to get it approved before your arrival by including the video you linked here and a description of why you believe it doesn’t count as a simply “open flame” stove, as discussed in the Philmont Guidebook to Adventure. Hope this helps!

    #3469836
    DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST
    Spectator

    @zelph2

    Thank you Ranger Hamon. I’ll send an email to the Ranch with a link to the video and explain that the positive action of the slide valve would comply with regulations found in the Philmont Guidebook to Adventure.
    You’ve been very helpful, thank you very much.

    Dan

    #3469893
    ed dzierzak
    BPL Member

    @dzierzak

    Locale: SE

    I can’t speak to the stove part (though I did have an advisor bring an alcohol stove – unknown to me until it appeared one morning).

    The procedure for special food has changed over the years, The last time we needed special diet, food was brought to Logistics with the Crew Leader, already packaged and labeled by day. We never had a problem receiving the meals.

    #3476179
    Bruce Tolley
    BPL Member

    @btolley

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    + 1 to checking with Philmont.

    While i personally use a Zelph stove for non BSA camping and think they are very safe, I do not think even the Zelph stove would pass muster with a land management agency as a positive shut off valve stove. Some of the USFS jurisdictions have started to add phrasing allowing during fire season only “pressurized liquid fuel stoves”.

    For the record, the BSA chemical fuels policy recommends against but does not prohibit alcohol stoves. The policy does prohibit “Equipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified,… ” including alcohol burning  can alcohol stoves.

    I guess I must ask, why all this interest in departing from the patrol method for the cooking?

    #3483131
    AT Grimaldi
    Spectator

    @atgrimaldi

    Locale: East Bay

    I have three tracks coming for my troop. All three tracks will be doing the patrol method of cooking. I am bringing a special diet just for myself. All of it can be rehydrated with the water from the patrol method cooking. I was looking more at small boils for coffee at stops during the day.

    #3483154
    Bob Moulder
    BPL Member

    @bobmny10562

    Locale: Westchester County, NY

    Assuming that you’re not using Esbit, given Philmont regs, afterward you might consider using a Toaks 550, an Esbit tri-wing stove (they’re getting a little harder to find, but still out there) and a small aluminum windscreen.

    I have just such a setup and it will boil 2 cups of water using 2 of the 5g Esbit tabs, and one 5g tab will also boil 1 cup of water so that you don’t have to deal with blowing out 14g tabs and re-igniting the leftovers for another boil. Also, the Snow Peak Hot Lips thing works with the Toaks 550.

    #3483157
    DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST
    Spectator

    @zelph2

    Try using the non spill Starlyte Burner with a DIY pot support. Philmont will like the no spill feature.

    http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/starlyte-burner-with-lid.php

    #3483806
    Jeffrey Peters
    BPL Member

    @petey091

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    #3483813
    Matt Dirksen
    BPL Member

    @namelessway

    Locale: Mid Atlantic

    What kind of stoves are your crew’s using? If they are using isobutane, I’d think bringing a 25 gram, $17 BRS-3000T along should do the trick.

    And given that the BSA’s national policy prohibits using alcohol, and Esbit stoves might be considered an “open flame”, I’m not sure what other practical options you have.

    #3483981
    ed dzierzak
    BPL Member

    @dzierzak

    Locale: SE

    Not to nit pick, but BSA prohibits “home-made” stoves, and alcohol is only “Not Recommended”.

     

    #3484059
    DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST
    Spectator

    @zelph2

    Ed, does that mean it can be used with caution?

    #3484134
    ed dzierzak
    BPL Member

    @dzierzak

    Locale: SE

    We have. There are commercial alcohol stoves, Trangia and Evernew come to mind. Also, some sail boats use alcohol stoves in their galleys.

    Still, not recommended, just not prohibited. Likely, since an alcohol flame is barely visible, refueling while still lit would be a problem.

    #3484168
    Matt Dirksen
    BPL Member

    @namelessway

    Locale: Mid Atlantic

    “Not to nit pick, but BSA prohibits “home-made” stoves, and alcohol is only “Not Recommended”.”

    Ahh. Very good point, Ed.

    I’d would be curious to know if Philmont’s insurance would cover any issues relating to alcohol stoves. My scoutmaster tends to be pretty nit-picky about these things. But he’s never gotten on my case about my caldera cone, nor been too interested in what I was burning inside of it, alcohol or otherwise.

    #3484177
    DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST
    Spectator

    @zelph2

    Alcohol stoves on boats are recommended because alcohol vapors rise upwards if a leak is occurring. Propane is used but extra precautions need to be taken.

    Propane and gasoline vapors settle downward in a boat. Concentrations can easily cause problems.

    My Starlyte burners/stoves are designed around the Origo marine stove canister.

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