Dual Trekking pole 2p tent like Duplex but…?

Avoid dcf, especially in your environment the wind will SHRED it

Hmm, yes, I’ve seen photos of DCF tents (one was a Duplex) coming apart at stress points in UK conditions. Would be a tragedy considering the cost. I’ve been happy with my silnylon Trailstar, which has seen ferocious winds and bears no scars. But what about .74 or .8 DCF? Better able to handle repeated stress? Trekkertent offer their shelter in silpoly.

Have you tried asking this on trek-lite? Plenty of members there with experience of DCF, silnylon and silpoly in UK conditions.

Incidentally, the photos of the Duplex that you mention are almost certainly a member call gixer’s, which was 0.74 DCF.

Yes, I read of Gixer’s Duplex experience! Didn’t realise it was 0.74 DCF though. Reading that report kind of contributed to me dismissing the Duplex as an option. Maybe I should dismiss all DCF, as per John L’s comment above? It would save me money at least, if not weight. As I say, I’m happy enough with silnylon/silpoly. If I could trust DCF I’d really appreciate the weight saving, but it seems it could be a short-lived and expensive mistake. The Trekkertent Drift 2 (and Custom) in silpoly loos a good option. Any more tents like that design I should be looing at? I looked at the SMD Luna Duo and Haven Bundle but they don’t seem built for these conditions either?

NM

Six moon Designs Haven combo?

I have and i use their Lunar solo and Gatewood Cape with Nettent and they perform wonderfully in heavy rains…even in fairly heavy wind..

I am actually in the market for the Haven Combo set up.. price is right and there is no long wait time from Six Moon Designs.

Oops.. missed previous post before i posted..

Ok then…

https://seekoutside.com/eolus/

You can get it with a nest too. Robust 30d Cordura silnylon.

The Eolus does look interesting – wondering how it stands up to humidity though, as it looks to be designed for desert use: wind stable but minimal venting for reducing condensation in humid climes. The door is very clever. One of the reasons I like the Duplex/Drift 2/Stratospire type design is that both entrances can be opened up completely to allow a wide open view. Not sure how possible that is with the Eolus. Is that inner nest a solid/mesh combo, I can’t tell from the photos. I’d certainly need a semi-solid inner for UK use.

We have used a Stratospire 2 (c120 nights, around 55 in the Pyrenees, 50 in Scotland) since early 2016.

Also owned the first  Drift 2 with solid inner and equal height poles in 2015  (which was my specification – previous models had one pole shorter and only mesh inners).

The Stratospire is the better performing tent.  Quicker to pitch.  Better interior room and doesn’t have those big rectangular panels to flap in the wind.   We have never experienced sag with constant rain.

The Silnylon ( like any) does absorb water when wet, but it is just temporary added weight, and doesn’t affect performance.

Silpoly still absorbs a little water(not as near as much).  But found it does stretch physically, so big panels bow in with wind pressure. Smaller or narrower triangular panels may be better.

I also own an Xmid1p.  But not a 2P .  An experienced friend (Scotland and Pyrenees/Alps) who owns both 1 and 2 reckons that due to end panel size, the 2 is a “bit of a sail” and rejected it for the Cape Wrath Trail later this month.  The Durston “silpoly” has a different feel altogether to the Trekkertent (RBTR?) silpoly.

I have seen many SMD shelters over the years, and own a Gatewood Cape. ( Had to repair the latter due to poor construction/materials, and also similarly repaired a Deschutes recently).  The build quality is inferior to Tarptent or Trekkertent, and far inferior to MLD. (I’ve owned and several of the latter too, still own my trailstar).

Recently borrowed a Seek Outside Silex, which has similar door design to the Eolus.  The droopy saggy doors hanging loose when opened drove me nuts on just one use.   Not for UK conditions unless you just want to have the doors shut most of the time. The panel cutting wasn’t all that either. Wrinkles. Quality fabrics though.

Great feedback Mole, thanks, you’ve owned / experienced most of the tents I’m looking at and under the same conditions. The SS2 is looking very good indeed. How is it in the wind, compared to an X- Mid 2, do you think? The design looks so similar, but maybe the TT pitchloc ends help to anchor the SS2 better.

I haven’t felt the need for an Xmid2.  (My partner is not keen on all mesh inners and we are pretty happy with the Stratospire).

But comparison of the Xmid1 and my Tarptent Notch in the wind, I find the Notch more aerodynamic and reassuring.  Not that the Xmid1p is likely to be a problem if well pegged.

I think the Strat 2 Vs XMid2 would possibly compare similarly.

My friends words:

I did think about  taking the xmid 2 but there’s so much unsupported fabric the thing would be a windsock.. Suprised how much difference 18inchs of width makes to the design. The xmid 1 felt pretty solid the 2  not so.

Mole, from your experience, would you say that the SS2 is also ‘like a sail in the wind’, as per your friend’s comments regarding the X-mid 2? Just wondering if the pitchlocs and geometry of the SS2 help with performance in the wind? I emailed Henry a while ago and recommended the SS2 for UK conditions.

Good to know about the Silex experience too. It does seem that the Eolus is marketed as primarily a desert shelter. The UK climate is about as far removed from desert as one can get. One of the reasons I’m drawn to the SS2/Drift/Duplex design is the ability to completely open up the entrances on both sides, and although at first glance the Eolus looks to have this capability, the doors and views do seem somewhat restricted by the bunched material.

When it comes down to it, most of the shelters of this design (Duplex, Six Moon Luna/Haven etc) seem more suitable to friendlier weather conditions, with the exception so far of the SS2 and maybe the Drift. Looks like the SS2 is on the cards.

I wouldn’t dismiss DCF on the basis of Gixer’s experience. The conditions were extreme and it’s far from certain that other materials would have fared better. Also, the design of the tent has a large role to play; some designs place more stress on the fabric than others.

DCF has a high tear strength and in a well-designed, properly pitched tent I don’t see any reason to trust it less than the lighter grades of silnylon or silpoly that you’ll find in lightweight tents.

Thanks William. I just thought that the ‘give’ in silnylon and silpoly in high winds is more protective of stress points than the inflexibility of DCF. This, combined with the fact (?) that DCF shelters are reputed to have a shorter lifespan anyway than silnylon/silpoly shelters makes me worry that I’d be spending a lot on something that would be fairly short lived if used in consistently windy conditions. If DCF really is something viable then the Stratospire Li and Trekkertent Drift 2 DCF are something I’d certainly consider, though whether the weight saving is really worth the extra cost is something I’d need to really look into. Whatever I go for it’d need to be wind stable and to have a proper inner for colder/windier weather, which rules out a lot of a-frame tents in both sil and DCF fabrics.

Silpoly when formulated with pure sil/sil coating has a certain stretch to it, like silnylon, but the kind of silpoly that is used in the Durston X-Mid is mixed with PU. This makes it possible for the manufacturer easily to use seam tape, but results in a fabric with very little stretch. Hence, pitching the X-Mid on uneven ground presents some of the same challenges as DCF. Personally, I’d rather have an unsealed fly allowing me to get the benefits of a sil/sil formulated fabric and also the potentially greater longevity of silnet compared to seam tape, but I understand the designer wanted something sealed out of the box, ready to go.

I’m just waiting for more people to start talking about the serious wind deflection issues on the X-Mids. I pitched the 1P on a very windy exposed grassy slope in the Monts du Cantal, which look a lot like many of the mountains in the UK, during a wind event. I don’t know the windspeed, but the wind was strong enough to require a standing person to brace herself against the force. The X-Mid, which held steady, nevertheless experienced serious deflection of the long sloping panels. Because of the angle at which the inner sits, the deflection has less impact on the inner (on the 1P) but impinges quite a bit on the vestibule. Deploying the peak guylines helped stability but didn’t do anything to reduce deflection.

I also did not like the fact that when the wind dies down you cannot fully open the sides of the X-Mid. The smaller of the two door panels on each side pretty much always has to be staked down.

I sold the 1P and the 2P for these reasons.

A few respectful clarifications and comments:

“the kind of silpoly that is used in the Durston X-Mid is mixed with PU”
The X-Mid is primarily a sil coated tent (on the outside) but uses some PEU (not PU) on the inside so we can seam tape and so the floor is non-slippery like sil. This is nearly as strong as sil/sil (PEU doesn’t weaken the fabric like PU does) and seam taping is generally more reliable for waterproofness than manual seam sealing (we’ve never had a report of any issues with leaking nor longevity, whereas issues with leaking after manual seam sealing are common) but yes the main reason for using seam tape is so that ready to go without additional cost/hassle/time for seam sealing.

“[the use of PU] results in a fabric with very little stretch. I’d rather have … a sil/sil formulated fabric “
Sil/sil poly is also not like silnylon because coatings don’t have much to do with the stretch of poly. Nylon has quite a bit of stretch in the fibers, whereas poly has very little, so sil/sil poly behaves quite a bit different than silnylon. Regardless of the coatings, poly largely only has mechanical stretch (from the weave) which is primarily on the bias (diagonal) to the threads. A poly shelter can have more or less stretch depending on how the the fabric is oriented, whereas nylon always has a lot (in addition to sag in wet conditions).

It’s debateable whether stretch is a good thing as it pertains to wind performance. It does let you stretch it tight initially, but it also continues to stretch under wind loading such that stretch generally causes more deflection. That’s why companies that use both (e.g. TarpTent) will say the non-stretch of DCF gives better wind performance.  Similarly, I suggest that the lower stretch of poly is generally a positive for wind performance.

“[due to the low stretch] pitching the X-Mid on uneven ground presents some of the same challenges as DCF.”
The primary reason the X-Mid can be harder to pitch on uneven ground is because the bottom edge of the fly is both low and straight cut – as opposed to a tent that hovers off the ground (e.g. Duplex) and/or uses catenary cut bottom edges. The low and straight bottom edges block maximum rain splatter and wind, but it does make it more sensitive to unevenness in the terrain and more sensitive to other issues with how accurate it is staked out (hard to explain). Catenary cuts along the bottom not only straddle bumps but also make it more tolerant of various issues like this. We are adding a bit of catenary cut to the bottom edge for the next batch. That will keep the bottom edge quite low, while being easier to pitch.

“I’m just waiting for more people to start talking about the serious wind deflection issues on the X-Mids.”
You are correct that the side panels can experience wind deflection, but what you describe doesn’t sound like a serious issue. You write that your X-Mid was “pitched the 1P on a very windy exposed grassy slope” where the “the wind was strong enough to require a standing person to brace herself against the force” and yet “the X-Mid held steady”. Yes there can be substantial side panel deflection in high winds since it is large panel – particularly if it’s pitched broadside to the wind – but as you note it doesn’t have much of an effect on the inner and we’ve never had a report of an issue (e.g. an X-Mid has never failed in high winds). Certainly it’s not a 4-season tent nor an extreme wind specialist shelter like the MLD trailstar, but I think the current wind performance is good for a lightweight 3-season shelter. In a review, Adventure Alan writes “Compared to the TarpTent StratoSpire 2…we give the X-Mid 2P a slight nod for surviving high winds”. Nonetheless, we are adding side panel guyouts for the next batch which dramatically reduces deflection here, so that has been addressed. Current owners can accomplish something similar using the door toggles. With the upcoming added catenary cut bottom edges and side panel guyouts, the high wind performance increases substantially.

“I also did not like the fact that when the wind dies down you cannot fully open the sides of the X-Mid. The smaller of the two door panels on each side pretty much always has to be staked down.”
You can open up the small sides too. Connect the cord at the bottom of the small panel to the guy out loop along the bottom hem of the end wall. It’s in exactly the right spot for that reason.

Hey Dan,

Yes, I’ve read your clarifications concerning the fabric coating formulation, sorry I got sloppy and called it PU instead of PEU. There’s a big difference, esp in terms of longevity, but not so much from the perspective of fabric flexibility.

Sounds like the next batch of X-Mids with cat cut bottom edges and side panel guyout points will be a much improved version, really a 2.0 upgrade.

A respectful question: Do you have any data to support the claim that seam taping has greater longevity than manual sealing using a liquid sealant? Anecdotal evidence: Every seam taped anything that I’ve bought and used eventually fails on the tape, whereas that hasn’t ever happened even after literally decades of use with manually-applied silicone-based sealants on siliconised fabrics. (Caveat emptor: If the user doesn’t have the patience to apply the sealant in the correct way, however, all bets are off).

In terms of what you have identified as First Principles, the issue of seam tape longevity falls under the category of Principle #2, Coherent Design. In all the numerous posts you’ve obligingly made about the X-Mids, I can’t recall ever seeing the longevity of tape vs manually applied sealant addressed. It’s probably just a really insignificant issue, but since I’ve had better experience with sealing than with tape, I’ve developed a personal bias against tape.

Thanks in advance.
Jon

I think it’s important to point out that the conditions I was using the 1P in were not 4-season.

The “nod” given by Adventure Alan in his review of the X-Mid 2P (cited above by Dan) is relative only to the TT Stratospire. AA explicitly refers to X-Mid deflection issues in his review: “One of the only downsides to the design of the tent is the large sidewalls, a necessity for the doors. On these large walls, there is no tie-out (guy line) in the middle. This isn’t as much a structural issue, but you get some significant deflections in strong wind. This means the walls can move in the wind and can get pushed into the interior walls without middle guy outs.”

Try this EU tent maker:  www.bonfus.com

Surely that Bonfus Duos is basically a Duplex? I’ve kind of ruled out the Duplex for UK use as I need something with a solid inner. If I were to for a DCF shelter in that kind of design then I’d probably choose a Stratospire li or Trekkertent Drift 2 DCF, as they have a solid inner option. The Bonfus looks like a very nice shelter though! I like the fact it has the extra tie outs for wind stability.

Yes Alan notes there can be deflection on the sidewalls, but also that you can use the door ties to avoid it, although the upcoming side guyouts will work better yet.

“Do you have any data to support the claim that seam taping has greater longevity than manual sealing using a liquid sealant?”
I may not have been clear, but I didn’t intend to make this claim. I was trying to speak to two components of the tape vs seal comparison, which are (1) how well it works, and (2) how long it lasts. When I said seam tape “is more reliable for waterproofness” I was referring to the former (since leaks with imperfect user seam sealing are common but fixable) and then with regard to the latter, I said we’ve had no reported issues (I didn’t mean to imply it would outlast silicone seam sealant, which, as you say, lasts pretty much forever.)

The vast majority of historical seam tape issues are due to the use of PU, which breaks down over time. Either the PU on the tape or the PU on the fabric starts to break down, and then you get the tape coming off. I’ve never seen issues like this with seam taping on PEU, and theoretically it seems like a much improved situation since PEU degradation is far less. Everything I’ve seen with taping on PEU indicates lifespan is a non-issue, and the lifespan seems to match the rest of the tent (hence why I think it’s a coherent design choice). It would save quite a bit of money if we stopped seam taping, but we prefer to do it because it works well and provides a more user friendly tent.

“I think it’s important to point out that the conditions I was using the 1P in were not 4-season.”
I’m personally not a big fan of the 3 vs 4 season distinction because time of year is only loosely correlated with how challenging the conditions are.  There are winter “4 season” conditions that any tent could handle (e.g. pitching in a calm forest without snow in the forecast) and also summer “3 season” conditions that might destroy a 4-season tent (e.g. pitched on a exposed summit during a severe gale). Some stressors like cold and snow are tied to season, but others like wind have virtually no correlation.

I’d rather we had terms that referred to the actual stressors rather than the time of year, such as “regular conditions” and “extreme conditions”. That’s basically how I think of the 3 season and 4 season terms (as regular or extreme conditions versions). Other companies see it similarly, such as MSR who write “instead of thinking about these definitions based purely on season, it helps to think in terms of what the tents are designed to handle”.  Anyways, how you draw the line between “regular” and “extreme” use is obviously very subjective, but distinctions aside, I think we can probably agree that an exposed campsite where the winds are so strong you have to lean into them would be quite stressful for many 3 season tents.

“Sounds like the next batch of X-Mids with cat cut bottom edges and side panel guyout points will be a much improved version, really a 2.0 upgrade.”
Yes. The upcoming fall batch of the 1P is a complete re-design

I’m with you on the point about 3 vs 4 season distinction. You’re the one who used the term in the first place, so I was just responding (quickly) to that.

Congrats on the redesign. I’ll certainly have another look later on down the road. Every design is a compromise. For various reasons, I’ve settled on monopole designs in sil/sil 20D silpoly as my preferred design compromise.