Down and/or Fleecy Pants!

In that case go with the alpha pants from Farpointe or Timmermade (1×90 or 2×60 gsm. Personally I would do the 2×60) that will be 5-6oz, then if you still need more warmth consider the Torrid Apex pants. That’s quite a bit of versatile leg warmth for ~12oz.

I have the same MB pants Lowell linked and they are great, but on a wet mountain with stop and go movement I think the EE Torrid pants would be a better choice for their improved moisture tolerance. Also the MB pants are too warm with much of any movement unless its very cold (think single digits)

I don’t understand the mix of fleece and down for a mid-weight bottom layer. They might be recommending that syn puffy bottom layer for when you get to camp or for part of your sleep system. The other scenario for a puffy mid layer might be the fact that on top of Mt Baker you get winds coming directly from Alaska and there is a lot of standing around. Might be worth asking the guide service.

I do have a non zip syn puffy bottom I sometimes bring for camp.  When I get to camp, sometimes before setting up my pyramid or tent, I get out my sit pad, sit on it, take off my boots, stand on the pad, then put on the syn puffy, then put my boots back on.

+1 to what DWR says about flexible easy to change layers.  In my experience this mostly involves the top layers. Depending on the course, there might not be much opportunity to change bottom layers during the day. Years ago when I took a winter mountaineering seminar at Lassen Volcanic Park , the guide (David Cressman, co-owner SWS Mountain Guides, excellent instructor!)  demonstrated his method of changing top layers. Amazingly with one smooth slow motion, he took off his pack, took off a layer, put the layer inside his pack, and put his pack back on.  Needless to say, it still takes me a few minutes to change a layer. and get my pack back on. But the art is to get the layer off before it gets too wet and get moving before you get too cold.

I don’t understand the mix of fleece and down for a mid-weight bottom layer. They might be recommending that syn puffy bottom layer for when you get to camp or for part of your sleep system.

So, I don’t get that either.  I kept asking myself “Why doesn’t the bottom half of my layer system mirror the top, more or less?”  If I need a poofy down layer at rest, why not add that over everything else like I would do with the poofy coat?  Last night, I put on the lightweight base layer and the softshell pants just to check fitment, and they’re pretty toasty; adding a hardshell to those – and I spent the extra for a full-zip hardshell pant – will make a system that’s downright hot when exerting oneself at anything over…eh, maybe 15° or so?  I’m just guessing at that number based on my winter experiences thus far, but there’s already going to be a lot of air trapped in between those layers; adding a fourth barrier of fleece should make things insanely warm, unless I’m misunderstanding something badly.

I’m fully with you guys on easy changes.  Once I have them on, I don’t want to take off the two lower layers on either half of myself; I would rather just add or subtract during the day as needed.  I don’t know that I can ever execute a smooth layer change like the one you described, Bruce – I have all the agility of a misshapen coracle – but I can usually get things changed quickly.  But then again, being cold changes everything.

In that case go with the alpha pants from Farpointe or Timmermade

Thanks, Marcus; I have been emailing with Dan at Timmermade and I haven’t heard back from Farpointe, so it looks like I might have one option at hand.  Also, I’m not sure why I didn’t immediately think of Goosefeet for some down pants; I have some mittens from them and I love them…so some full-zip poofy belay pants shouldn’t be hard to create.

I don’t have alpha bottoms. But my leg insulation looks like this in New England outings, including Mt Washington in winter:

• Below freezing but under 20F, the softshell pants are enough when active. I have down pants and also a pair of very baggy silnylon pants that I will throw over when stationary. One or the other, not both. The silnylon pants are part of my rain gear kit, in case the weather is warmer than forecasted.
• Zero and below, I wear a standard mid weight layer. I tried a heavier polartec gridded thermal bottom, but I found it too much for me when pushing a good pace. Fine if moving slow. When stationary, I will put on my down and perhaps the baggy silnylon pants over them depending on weather conditions (wind), chances of snagging, or time foreseen outside sleeping bag.
• Teens are in between. Perhaps a lightweight layer under the softshell pants and down puffy over when stationary.

I have considered alpha pants, but fear they would be too warm except perhaps at zero F or below.

Below 20F I use vapor barriers in both my hands and feet. Turkey oven roast bags for feet and 9MIL gloves from Harbor Freight.

If buying down pants, I would prefer the extra weight of full side zippers. Mine don’t have them, but it would be great to not have to take my shoes off when putting them on and off… Mine are GooseFeet Gear and they are great. I would probably order from them or Timmermade.

Iago, those are some good guidelines; thank you!  I’m expecting teens, although as others have (more knowledgeably) said, so much depends on the forecast at the time.  That’s why I thought Alpha would be a good material; it seems to have a lot of latitude.  I actually threw the fleece hoodie on a few nights ago when it was a very humid 85° and went for a walk…and I didn’t overheat.   I then walked back into a 65° house and wasn’t cold…so although that’s not a huge temp difference, I’m hopeful that it’ll perform similarly when it needs to do so.

I think I’m going to skip the down pants this time around, and possibly find a zip-off set later this year; I’m already up to my ears in gear that I’ve never tested before, and that worries me severely.  If I can get an Alpha layer for my legs, I should be pretty good to go.

Follow-up: had a few really good conversations with Dan at Timmermade, and didn’t actually hear back from anyone else at all…so, Dan gets the business!  He’s going to expedite a pair of Alpha pants for me, per their rush service.  Problem solved.

Moving even slowly I’d go with the fleece pants.   With a windshell pant, you can use the fleece in camp but probably couldn’t use the down if you had to move faster.

I knew someone who used down pants to extend his quilt rating, along with a down hoody (both garments from UK’s Phd)  but only in camp.

Timmermade pants arrived last night; they are stupidly light, yet still awesomely warm under the softshell layer.  Dan was great to work with; I’ll definitely be doing business with him again.

My mountaineering “outfit” for climbing in the cold consists of:

• a base layer (thickness adjusts to the conditions, usually 150 merino for mild weather and 100 wt powerstretch fleece for colder weather)
• a light softshell pant with side zips (usually have to custom add these), I use the Patagonia Quandary and Arc’teryx Sigma FL
• for stormy/windy conditions, add a side-zip WPB pant
• for camp, a side zip down pant is ideal (side zips more for ventilation than anything).

In winter sun without wind, I’m always surprised with how little my legs need while climbing, and how much they need when the wind picks up or the sun goes down.

I have a pair of Nature Hike Chinese down pants. Before you dismiss them as “cheap” take a look at the specs:  ->800 fill down  ->double seat and knees. ->full length YKK leg zippers.  ->reinforced cuffs outside and inside with drawstrings  IMHO they are good build quality and good materials.

Comparing the Naturehikes to the ghost whisperers and the EE Torrids.

All pretty close in warmth.

I felt the Torrids were the warmest due to no baffling. The Naturehikes came in 2nd and were the cheapest by far. Then the Ghost Whisperers.

The Torrids were the lightest followed by the NH (with pockets), then the GWs.

For xl, the Torrids were huge. The NH a good fit allowing clothing underneath. The GWs were a very slim fit.

GWs had the most features with ankle zips. Due to the sizing they’ve started to split a little.. Easy to tape. They were the nicest looking in public before the tape.

The NH pockets were hard to use. Small with a weird shape. Zippered, I cut the actual pocket out and get a little ventilation.

The NH fit over the GWs and the Torrids fit over both for non strenuous activity on cold days.

For

+1 for the NatureHike pants. I have the model with no reinforced layers, but they are very warm and light. Low price, but feels like high quality. Size up!