Covid-19- “Thank you for your opinion”

[Cameron M]

Runyon Canyon, one of Los Angeles’s famed local urban hikes, was finally re-opened this week with social distance measures, including mandatory face masks, some trails still closed, one-way trails and marked-off roads. Near the top of the West Trail I had to walk past this group with no masks, no distancing, group selfies, etc. I announced “Hey guys, one-half of Los Angeles is out of work now, and a tremendous number of those people are undocumented workers who have no access to any social services and are worried about how they are going to feed their kids tonight. Don’t you think we could all wear masks to help end this horrible situation?

The response: “Thank you for your opinion”.

[Kate Anthony]

Sunrise tomorrow is 5:43 am on the west coast. I get out at dawn to avoid the yahoos on local trails. Speaking out in that situation will not change minds. Just my opinion.

[Pedestrian]

At least you didn’t get the birdie…..or worse….

All denizens of the “Land of the Free”.

Never mess with MY freedoms they say!

 

[W I S N E R !]

Also in Los Angeles….

Had to go into Sunset Kaiser for a procedure the other day.  Without a doubt, the hospitals are safer than the front-country trails right now.  It’s a total $#!#show out there.

Did you see what happened at Eaton Canyon on Memorial Weekend?

 

[BlackHatGuy]

I’m truly so fricking tired of all the a$$holes out there.

[Ken Thompson]

You’re not really surprised by that reaction are you? I’m surprised the response was that civil though.

[Matthew / BPL]

“Thank you for your opinion” is much more civil than I would expect

[Tom K]

I’m amazed at how considerate folks are on our local trails.  A lot of younger people don’t wear masks, but they are good at stepping off their side of the trail and not talking when they pass.  Most others wear masks and put them up before approachng, as do we.   My partner and I start early and choose routes that don’t get a lot of traffic, which avoids a lot of the issues.  So far, so good;  2 months and still healthy.  Best of all, the Forest Service has opened up the mountain trails, and we’ll be getting up into the Cascades late next week.   Lots more room to space out up there.

[Cameron M]

The opening of Runyon Canyon was delayed longer than most of the other parks and trails for this very reason. This behavior will likely lead to Runyon being closed again. On so many different levels it is a sad situation.

[Kattt]

They should be wearing masks.
That said, did you really believe your finger wagging approach of shaming them was going to instantly work?

[Arthur]

We have a 30,000 acre Preserve in Scottsdale.  Not a park, a preserve.  There are people hiking and biking at night. (illegal) Dogs off leashes, poop left in the middle of the trails. (illegal)  Drones (illegal) being flown. Electric bikes of all kinds. (illegal).  Off trail hiking (illegal).  Bikers not yielding to horses and hikers. (illegal).  People digging up cactus to take home. (illegal).   The area ranks very high on the level of education of the population, so that means nothing.   So, what is the chance of people changing by me lecturing, complaining, shaming, and confronting people about masks?    I suspect it just raises my own blood pressure and shortens my own life, as well as setting me up for a physical confrontation.

[AK Granola]

Doing things for others used to be a value, at least in the community I grew up in. You picked up litter, followed the rules, and didn’t leave messes for others. You didn’t leave toilet paper on the floor in public restrooms. Churches brought in and assisted refugees, people volunteered at the blood drives, or hospital fundraisers. Practically every weekend involved some sort of community event, in which volunteers made things run. People who got sick got many offers of assistance; I remember leaving groceries on the porch for a family with hepatitis. More recently when ICE rounded up all the undocumented male farmworkers, my hometown community (of which I am no longer a part) banded together to help the women and kids who were left behind without income, providing them food, medical care, and clothing. No one was screaming about illegals; they were helping people who needed help. When my parents gave up driving, we gave their car to a man who needed one for work, but couldn’t afford one.

It was a small town, so maybe that was just small town life and it still exists. But it does seem like doing things for yourself is now the highest value, rather than doing something for others. Community=communism. Masks=taking-away-my-freedom. Me comes first. Will that be the trait that sends humanity to extinction? When did we all learn to put ourselves before others and to hell with the community?

On the other topic people have brought up here – the “gotta destroy to enjoy” mentality. The people who litter, tear up trails, ride ORVs on sensitive land, etc. Are they ignorant or careless? I ran into one guy on a hike a few years back, riding his 4 wheeler on a trail during a rainy wet period. He was making massive ruts in the trail and laughing and joyful, covered with mud and ripping up everywhere. Just loved wrecking it completely! Destroy to enjoy. I didn’t even try to talk to him. Why bother? the education has to start with the young; the old are too selfish and stuck in their ways. One guy took his kids out and spray painted rocks in a state park area. He just thought it was fun for the kids, didn’t even realize it was not legal or frowned upon. Different aesthetic I guess. He did go back and scrub the rocks when he was caught and realized it wasn’t ok.

And just to counter all the negative ranting, here’s a photo from my day hike yesterday, an easy all alpine hike near Fairbanks. The ORVs had done a lot of damage there too, but it was still an enjoyable hike. I picked up 3 pieces of microtrash, inadvertently left behind. I didn’t haul out the completely destroyed 4 wheeler though! Boy scout troop project perhaps.

 

[W I S N E R !]

So if we all assume that speaking up, even politely, doesn’t change anything and possibly even incurs personal risk, are we essentially becoming a society of people that keep their mouths shut and just look the other way?

That’s what it’s beginning to feel like to me.

I still have enough faith in people to believe that all of the terrible behavior in this world is perpetrated by some fraction representing the lowest common denominator.  But if everyone shrugs it off and decides it’s not their place to say or do anything, then whose responsibility is it? Be prepared to watch that lowest common denominator grow.

Seems to me this ultimately ends with people clamoring for more authority, more policing, more outside oversight. As is happening in my city right now.  Because people cannot regulate themselves and we’re not willing to regulate each other in a socially appropriate way, we now have guards posted at trailheads for enforcement, padlocks on public gates, and police patrolling our parks.

[Kattt]

There are much better ways to talk to people than OP did in my opinion. He is lucky he got the reply he did.

[W I S N E R !]

What would you have said Kat?

I’ll be honest, I would likely have kept my mouth shut and left.

Here we are.

 

[David Thomas]

I appreciate Cameron speaking up.  I’ll chide people for cutting switchbacks, leaving dog poop behind (on trails, I don’t mind in the forest), and littering.  I do find it hard and sometimes the right words only occur to me an hour later.  We all have different styles and just setting a good example often has more impact than we realize.  Wearing a mask as I do my shopping perhaps enables several other people to do so their next trip, if we’re a bit less in the minority.

It’s sad that the far right and Russian bots have managed to cast this as a “freedom” thing instead of a community effort to protect each other.  As red a state as Alaska is, the next or second car along will check if you need help with a flat tire or if you’re in a ditch.  Hitchhikers can actually catch rides.  When you get a lot of fish, you give some to people who don’t.  We’re a small enough population and are thin enough on the land that there is still a sense of “we’re all in this together”.

After lamenting that more people weren’t invested in saving the backcountry, we’ve now got more people using it than ever before.  It’s not just hippie tree-huggers and the hook&bullet crowd (that has its own conservation ethic).  It’s now a much wider cross-section of people who weren’t brought into it through their parents, scoutmasters, LNT program, or college outing club.  It’s people who watched a youtube video and are trying out a new sport, maybe in part for a cool selfie.

For our own peace of mind, do we have to mentally cede the most popular and iconic trails to the front country?  Consider it as a several miles more sidewalk before we get to the less impacted places that we have the knowledge, gear, and skills to access?

All that said, the more recent data analysis I’ve seen suggests that indoor air exposure if a covid-19 positive person is/was there, particularly for extended periods, is orders of magnitude riskier than outdoor exposure.  Yes, it can persist on surfaces, but the primary transmission mode is airborne droplets.  Look at the Asian countries where mask use was already normal during flu seasons and how effective their responses have been, even with very high population densities and crowded facilities.

Stay masked inside (a public place).
Don’t stay inside for long.
Go outside.

[Kattt]

I believe in wearing masks. Australia does not and is not even recommending it, which is interesting in itself.

I would probably not have said anything but if I did it would have been short and not tied issues like immigration in with it. I may have said something like “ Hey I get that you would probably be fine if you got the virus but I can’t help but worry about older people even in your own family. “  Most likely I’d have just given a look and moved on though.

[Jim C]

As red a state as Alaska is, the next or second car along will check if you need help with a flat tire or if you’re in a ditch.  Hitchhikers can actually catch rides.  When you get a lot of fish, you give some to people who don’t,

Those red staters sound absolutely terrible.

[Jenny A]

I do not own a smartphone, but one of the reasons I would strongly consider getting one would be to video unhelpful behavior while offering an “educational suggestion.”   The hope would be that dislike of public shaming might encourage folks to do the right thing.   As events of the past few days have proven, cell phone video can change the world.

(The other reason I would get one would be to talk in one of those amazing dinosaur animoji voices!)

[Jerry Adams]

Once I told some switch backers that that causes trail erosion

I overheard one of them saying something like “I told you so”

I think speaking up like Cameron did is like planting a seed, sometimes it takes a while to sprout.

Saying something about effectiveness of masks and then moving on is a good thing.

If enough people follow social distancing protocol, then the virus will recede.  You can have a few a holes.  Most people I’ve noticed have been pretty good.

[Ben C]

You guys would be appalled by the South. I was in Tennessee this past weekend in route to a backpacking trip. We stopped for lunch in a restaurant in Knoxville. Not a person had on a mask other than the server. This is in downtown Knoxville. We’ll see how this works out.

[Jason McSpadden]

Well, as the wise women in my life would probably say:

“Reward good behavior.”

“Catch people doing the right thing rather than the wrong thing.”

“You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.”

What do I say in return to these wise women, “It sure is hard to do!  I don’t think of that first.”

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

It’s not any different in Santa Barbara. Not a lot of younger people on trails are wearing masks. But some do. I put mine on when I see people coming, otherwise I don’t wear it.

[Cameron M]

The desire to hike in nature is a key interest of this website, and our ability to do so is currently challenged, whether it is access to local hikes or permit station closures. I think this has been a useful conversation and I commend everyone for avoiding the current societal tendency to politicize or demonize others about a range of concerns about which reasonable people may disagree. In this case the general issues include public policy informed by health concerns; who has the authority to make the rules; does one need to respect the rules; access to public places; and whether one chooses to take part in enforcing or encouraging others to observe the rules, whatever they may be.

In considering for myself how to think about and act in the situation at Runyon Canyon I offer examples of two public amenities:

Public Pools. When I enter the pool there are a list of rules that everyone is asked to follow. They range from clear public safety rules, like interdictions against using the pool while experiencing active diarrhea, to management issues, like where you leave your things or how you circle-swim safely or share the lanes efficiently. I have not seen anyone challenge rules about diarrhea, but in almost every other respect I have seen conflict amongst swimmers and clear defiance of authority. One man had to be escorted out of the pool by the police as he did not think the pool had the right to tell him to not swim in the fast lane. Some people are clearly just crazy. When I experience inappropriate behavior, I now mostly avoid confrontation and if necessary ask a pool official to officiate. However, if someone is clearly a novice to swimming or new to our pool, I try to approach them in a friendly way, not assume malice, avoid anger and treat them respect, and it usually works out fine, but it took me many years to master this skill! I think the key analogies to Runyon are that the pool is a shared public amenity that is available to everyone so long as they accept the authority of the pool officials; that to enter the pool commits one to a social contract of benevolently-controlled behavior; and, well, if you pee in the pool, you ruin it for everyone. Shared public amenity- governed by rules of a recognized authority- public health concerns- social contract- socially responsible behavior.

Wilderness Rules. There are places in nature where to walk and camp requires the use of a bear canister. This rule was made to both protect the bears from the need to transport or worse euthanize them when they discover people food, and also to protect people from bears who begin to associate people with food. There are other regulations to protect nature, and they often include the use of mandated campsites and established fire rings. So if I go to the mandated campsite, and ten feet away Jim and Jane Doe think it is clever idea to sleep next to their unprotected food, I don’t think that is acceptable, there is no authority present to officiate, and I may decide to discuss the issue with them. Similar to the pool, the campsite is a shared public amenity- governed by rules of a recognized authority- with public safety concerns as well as wilderness management concerns- social contract- socially responsible behavior. There are limits to my ability to enforce the rules, and once again it is important to treat others with some respect. I have several times pointed out that the food garbage next to a tent presents the same issues as packaged food, and the newbies just never thought about it that way and are usually thankful for the exchange. Many of us actually know how to protect food just fine without canisters, but we understand that the making of public policy must not assume universal knowledge or proficiency.  As for my behavior, I have to decide how I want to manage my own fear or frustration over a situation, and how much I am willing to engage a potential confrontation. I tend to get more irked by behavior that does damage as opposed to general rudeness.

Back to Runyon Canyon. This is the first pandemic most of us have ever experienced, but I think most of the access and use issues of this specific place are basically the same as the pool and the wilderness. The City of Los Angeles has mandated the “Safe At Home” policy to use face coverings and social distancing protocols, and as an additional sub-layer of authority, the park went beyond to pay guards to inform people at the gate about social distancing and to check for face coverings. A series of signs and marking were set up within the park, and the park even designated that the trail in question be one-way only. Additionally, I am in the older at-risk age category, and the group I encountered was not making the slightest effort to provide me with a safe path through their big party. So it is the same: Shared public amenity- governed by rules of a recognized authority- public health concerns- social contract- socially responsible behavior. More than other less congested local trails, Runyon Canyon is very much a popular an urban park, not any kind of wilderness, and I believe that in that specific place I had a right to expect face masks and social distancing in my close presence.

Generally speaking through these times I have enjoyed a sense of camaraderie and respect with my fellow neighbor walkers and shoppers, so the behavior at the park was a surprise to me. I probably should have not bothered to say anything as I tried to pass through this group.  I did not speak with anger, and was respectful in just stating my viewpoint. Hopefully at least one person went home thinking just a little bit more about society and their place in it. In the meantime, I need to train a lot more for the summer, but even if Runyon stays open, which at this point may be in doubt, I think I will need to hike elsewhere.

Unfortunately, I fear that the virus will in various ways impact everyone’s access to nature for some time to come.

[Author]

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