Coating silnylon w/ silicone and gas, too dangerous for basement?

[Pigeon]

I want to recoat my older Tarptent with a highly diluted mix of Silicone in Naptha. Is it too dangerous to attempt in a large open basement, maybe in several short installments? Will the fumes ever dissipate if it’s not well ventilated?

[Pigeon]

Oh and would it be likely to smell upstairs if the basement isn’t sealed well due to open slotted stairs?

[Roger Caffin]

Read up on ‘fuel/air’ explosions. Can blow the house apart.
DO IT OUTSIDE!!!

Cheers

[James Marco]

I have coated many tarps/tents in my time, but never indoors. Unless you have the door open, not even the garage is suitable.As Roger said, DO IT OUTSIDE!!! The fumes from a single tarp can be dangerous simply by breathing them in, especially in an enclosed area.

But, there are other problems with white gas/naptha. It evaporates a little too fast. When you do a large area, you will find that it dries very quickly, soo, while it is great for backpacks (or cold weather) brush strokes will lap leaving lines and streaks in the finished product. A good paint thinner (mineral spirits) works well, but do not get the EcoFriendly stuff. It has water in it which will contribute to setting the silicone. You really want to spread it, evaporate the minera spirits, dry the thin layer of silicone left behind. However we know that these processes overlap some…

 

[Stumphges]

I’d like to add to the caution urged by Roger and Marco. VOCs are no joke when it comes to your nervous system. Upping the hydrostatic head of your tarp is not worth giving yourself neurological damage, that might be subtle enough to evade notice but that nevertheless has a negative impact on your life. Even outside I would use an organic vapor respirator.

[Pigeon]

My God, I knew it was a bad idea. I’ll try it outside in the cold or wait for spring…hadn’t considered an outdoor respirator but I will now. Thanks all.

[Franco Darioli]

I would suggest you use the Atkso silicone water guard.

Only takes a few minutes, adds less than two ounces of weight to a two person tent.

http://www.atsko.com/silicone-water-guard-12-oz-aerosol/

[Pigeon]

Thanks for the suggestion.

I have both and I’m going back and forth on which to use. I might pick the Atsko due to ease of use, but from  my reading I took away that the silicone mix is anecdotally  more waterproof against direct rainfall. I know TT suggests the Atsko…but is that because of the mess of painting thinned silicone and the probability of defacing the tent?

Of course, I can’t even confirm that my tent is misting (don’t have a hose to test), but I’ve been soaked several times.

Edit:However I really appreciate the potential dangers being pointed out to me….and I’ll probably use the spray. Should it dry OK if it’s 40° and sunny?

[Roger Caffin]

Atsko and diluted silicone are two entirely different things.
The Atsko spray is a light silicone which will bond gently with silnylon. It works for a year or two, then wears off. (I use it for that myself.)

Diluted silicone can be painted onto existing silicone, but there is a significant chance it will peel off again after 6 – 12 months of use. This is especially likely to happen if the surface is not very clean.

On the other hand, the silicone adhesive/sealant found in smaller metal squeeze-tubescan be just the thing for seam sealing. For this I recommend something like Permatek Flowable Windscreen sealant, used neat (ie do NOT dilute). It works well.

It is also worth noting that there is a huge difference between the adhesive/sealants (like PFW) you get in small metal tubes and the bulk stuff you get for gutters in big cartridges. The tubes can be sealed and last for a few years and the stuff sticks well; the cartridges go off in 3 – 6 months and the stuff tends to peel off anyhow (imhe).

Others may have had more success, so ymmv.

Cheers

[Stumphges]

Franco, do you find the Atsko formula improves hydrostatic head and not just hydrophobicity (i.e. spray rating)? I recall Richard Nisley writing that he’d tried it and it had not improved hydrostatic head.

Roger, would Permatex Flowable sealant work for augmenting an entire tarp/fly or is it best for seams?Also, regarding small tubes vs. big ones, I recall that Richard Nisley used GE-57 100% silicone sealant because of its high UV resistance.

XYZ, this recent thread might be of interest: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/how-to-improve-this-silnylon-hydrostatic-head-longevity-effect-on-weight/#post-3379990

 

BTW, does anyone know why consumer applied 100% silicone coatings are often reported to be slightly tacky and dust-attracting, while factory applied silicone coatings are often ultra slippery and slick? It’s always seemed odd that the proposed solution to too-slippery silicone-coated tent floors has been to apply more silicone.

[Franco Darioli]

Atsko makes two different types of waterproofing solution.

The spray and a liquid type.

The spray will wear off with use *, the liquid type lasts longer but it is only available in 1 gallon cans.

• Other users have quoted 1-2 season of use before recoating.

 

[James Marco]

Like Roger says, silicone caulk is different from silicone sprays. Caulk will penetrate and bond to itself around any micro leaks that cause misting, has good crack filling properties and remains waterproof.  I think this is a linear silicone molecule.The spray is a surfacing agent to improve water repulsion, I think this is a ring molecule. Water molecules will literally slip easier off the fabric. Two different animals and suited to two different purposes.  There are also mixtures of the two types…

On silnylon, pu floors, etc used in tents, I use about a 10-25:1 mix, mineral spirits:caulk. Assuming a coating has been applied, you really only need to close up any porosity due to stretching, scratches from abrasion, and other physical damage. This includes seams and pressure points. So I paint it on everything. This will seal well and improves HH about 1000-2000mm. (If you do the inside, then do the outside so the new coating can bond to itself through any pores, you get another approximate 1000mm of head over a single light coating.) This will add around .2oz/yd to the final weight.  1.3oz/yd silnylon becomes around 1.5oz/yd but is FAR more durable…maybe about 3x-5x longer wearing than 1.3oz/yd. But, use the new fabric first for maximum effectiveness. You really want any failure, usually  micro-pores, to develop (stakes, seam stretches, pole mounts, etc) and then be repaired, since the thinner coatings often will fail in areas and may not be consistently applied. Also, you want the fabric to stretch in the hard use areas and develop any pores…but cheaper silnylons often require it “out of the box” to eliminate any misting…an example of a partial coating with micro-pores.

I have used up to 50:1 on some of my tarps. This was more as a touch up and adds less than .1oz/yd. (Note that after drying, these were weighed and averaged for these numbers.  I use low-odor mineral spirits and 100% silicone caulk, usually GE brand.)

Note that this depends a lot on the fabric, but cheap chineese fabrics are weak in the coating department. A thin coat will not peel off from new or clean fabric. It will bond fairly strongly. (The actual peeling comes from applying an overly heavy coating, leaving the surface film stronger than the attachment to the fabric.  It’s also heavy (weight) if applied <10:1, around .5-2oz/yd and subject to peeling.)

Well, as far as coatings go, the actual manufacturing uses some sort of “mold release” compound to prevent sticking. You will find that working with silnylon, your hands will turn a bit whitish with the dust. There are a host of different chemicals/compounds for sil coatings and mold release or anti-sticking formulations. I do not know which ones are used at which factory. Some is statically applied. After it gets in the rain a few times, it will wash off and loose this property. Some likes to bond with itself (likes attract) so this can be a problem with freshly applied coatings. You need something like talcum powder to provide a barrier…water will be absorbed into the surface coating along with dust under normal use.

Also, silicone is a rather rounded molecule(even in a chain) and tends to be slick in some of these coatings and is generally a little stiffer. Some is rather rubbery and mostly sticky. Both are silicone formulas. The rubbery type is typically used in caulks where slight movements between objects (say a metal kitchen sink and a formica counter top) needs to happen due to heating and cooling, ie caulk.

Now you know more than you wanted too…Look up siloxanes and ilk for more if you are nerdy enough to want more…

[Roger Caffin]

Roger, would Permatex Flowable sealant work for augmenting an entire tarp/fly or is it best for seams?
It’s good for seams, for sure.
If you can spread it across a clean surface thinly and with some pressure, you can do a large area as well. I have done this once – it took hours! But it worked.

The answer to a lot of other questions is that there are hundreds of different formulations, all with slightly different properties.

Cheers

[Stumphges]

Franco, thank you. I’m curious about Atsko’s liquid and will pester them with some questions.

Marco, thank you for the excellent brief. On to siloxanes!

Which, Roger, you’ve mentioned before. Thanks again for your help.

[David Thomas]

Not only do I know how this can end, but it’s happened often enough to me that when I blew up the Airstream, that I immediately recognized that “Oh, I won’t have to shave my legs this month” sensation of the flame front moving up my pants leg.

At least do it in a room (or trailer) with windows – they function as pressure relief valves.

Or, you know, better yet, do it OUTSIDE!

[Jerry Adams]

Mineral spirits isn’t as flammable as white gas.  Sold as “Paint thinner” at the store, but some paint thinner is watery and won’t work, it says “safer” or “low VOC” or something.  Or lighter fluid for charcoal grills is mineral spirits.  It should list “mineral spirits” as the ingredient.  I’d still use it outside.  And try not to breath the fumes.

White gas can catch fire even outside.  I know someone who melted his pants onto his skin – life changing

[Author]

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