Choosing EE Revelation quilt warmth for use with down parka

[John W]

Hello everyone, I am figuring out proper clothing and sleeping systems for me and my gf to sleep in temps down to 20F.

Each of us would have two 150-170 gsm merino long sleeves, 150/200 merino long johns, a lightweight fleece, custom down parka and custom NeoShell rain jacket. We would like to combine these items with the quilt to lighten it.

She is usually cold, I am usually hotter than average male. I can often strip down to my merino to prevent sweating on the bus on the bus while others sit in their winter coats and hats. I usually have trouble falling asleep when it’s too warm in the room.

Unfortunately, we have never spent the night in the outdoors yet. So no reference sleep gear. I strongly suspect that sleeping @20F in baselayers, I might be okay in 25F-30F rated quilt while she would need a 10F.

We were recommended 4.5oz 850 down fill for my parka and 5.5oz for hers (fill amounts for size M, conditions: camp chores around 0C, couple hour urban walks @-10C, 10-15 min ski lifts @-20C).

As far as I understand, if I layer the quilt with my parka I should be able to shave at least 60-70% of parka’s down fill volume from the quilt to retain the same total warmth.

So down to the math, GF first:
– Parka in size M would have 5.5oz 850 down
– 10F quilt in regular size has 15.61oz 850 down

Parka efficiency	Required quilt fill	Appropriate quilt
100%			10.11 oz		30F (10.42 oz fill)
 90%			10.66 oz		30F with a quarter ounce stretch
 80%			11.21 oz		20F (13.03 oz fill)
 70%			11.76 oz		20F
 60%			12.31 oz		20F
 50%			12.86 oz		20F

I guess the verdict for her is 20F quilt.

Math for me:
– Parka in size M would have 4.5oz 850 down
– 25F rated quilt would have 11.73oz 850 down (average between 20F/30F)

Parka efficiency	Required quilt fill	Appropriate quilt
100%			 7.23 oz		40F (7.83 oz fill)
 90%			 7.68 oz		40F (7.83 oz fill)
 80%			 8.13 oz		30F (10.42 oz fill)
 70%			 8.58 oz		30F (10.42 oz fill)
 60%			 9.03 oz		30F (10.42 oz fill)
 50%			 9.48 oz		30F (10.42 oz fill)

If I am 10F warmer than average than it shifts much further towards 40F:

100%			 5.92 oz		40F (7.83 oz fill)
 90%			 6.37 oz		40F (7.83 oz fill)
 80%			 6.82 oz		40F (7.83 oz fill)
 70%			 7.27 oz		40F (7.83 oz fill)
 60%			 7.72 oz		40F (7.83 oz fill)
 50%			 8.17 oz		30F (10.42 oz fill)

Verdict for myself is not so clear. I am very tempted to shave those ounces.
Also while searching forums on this subject I encountered a post from EE’s owner Tim where he mentioned that rain jacket also helps with a few degrees.

What do you think of this? I have placed an order with EE but with Black Friday queues I hope it’s not too late to make adjustments.

[John W]

Sorry, could not edit my post. What I mean by layering parka with the quilt is draping the parka over me under quilt, not wearing it. I’m aware of down compression issue under body weight. Also afraid that wearing it can make my armpits sweat.

[Stephen M]

You say you have never spent a night in the outdoors. Have you ever slept in a tent at all?

 

[Bob Shuff]

Hi @john-the-outdoorsman,  are you sure it isn’t @john-the-engineer?  It takes one to know one.

I recently waded into some threads here talking about combining quilts, and can tell you there is a lot of history in the archives (old threads), that debate the benefits/tradeoff of overfilling down beyond it’s “full loft” volume.  More knowledgeable folks can reply further if it applies.  Like you, I think, I’m mainly interested in the needed warmth at the lightest weight.  The size of the quilt and the amount of extra down (or how much the vendor overstuffs on the standard quilt) all would complicate the equation.  if you a cold foot sleeper your jacket won’t help.  If you have a hat or hood on it will also impact how warm you sleep.

I’ve always had difficulty looking purely at ounces of down and rely more on inches of loft.  If your jacket gives you an inch of loft, you can probably approximate the added warmth to your torso, but you’ll have to deal with legs/feet/stray arms.  Only you will know (or learn) if you are sensitive to cold feet and need down booties.

An insulated pad is also critical in cold weather. I’m certainly not a cold-cold expert, but I’ve slept enough in the mid-20s to mid-30s and been cold at different times.  I  sometimes put a space blanket under my pad, and that seems to help.  I use both foam and inflatable pads when planning to sleep on snow.

Last suggestion you didn’t ask for, consider a sleeping bag liner or overquilt/blanket.  Sleeping bag liners are light, but effective.  I’ve only used them individually.  Overquilts/blankets are great with partners since it’s helps share the warmth, and you can always vent on your side.

Sorry I can’t answer your oz of down question.  I don’t think it’s going to answer your need.

[John W]

Stephen, no we have not. Day-hikes only. Looking to fix that embarrassment next year. Already bought ZPacks Duplex and NeoAir XLites, one regular, one women’s.

Bob, thank you for such detailed post. I do indeed have some engineering background. Will certainly use your advice regarding space blanket. The issue of cold feet has left me concerned too and extra down socks would probably nullify weight savings on the quilt.

I did consider an Accomplice double quilt but it seems less practical for us than separate quilts – indoors we feel more comfortable with separate blankets. Also it would be much less problematic to have a single quilt than a double in my carry-on backpack if flying solo.

[Stephen M]

Hi John,

It might be worth going car camping first to see how your wife gets on with it.

[John W]

Stephen, thanks for your concern, I believe everything will be all right in that department. I don’t have a car, but this year there are usually mountains outside my window. ;)

[James holden]

john

– as stephen said spend a few nights outdoors to see what you find works … perhpas you can borrow bags off friends?

– make sure yr wife especially is OK with quilts, especially below freezing … theres quite a few threads on it, but quilts require more skill than a sleeping bag, and some folks never get used to it … quilts can either be perfect, or very cold depending on how you use em … youll likely want additional down hoods

– the problem with assuming your down jacket will make up in temps for your quilt/bag is that the insulation is all on the upper part … for a proper ratings boost youll need down pants or a second jacket to drape over the lower body

– the other issue is that it leaves you with little margin of error should the temp predictions be off (or if you end up wet/damp, or feel cold that day) … now having a 20F quilt when the night unexpectedly drops to 10F … youll be glad you had your down jacket as a “booster” and didnt get that 30F quilt to save weight

– the 10F gap is really a generalization for women … some run hotter, other cooler … but generally the skinnier and smaller she is (and older), the greater the gap … my favorite climbing parter for example has more of a 20F gap

as a note … men are stupid and tolerate being cold and uncomfortable at night … women are much smarter and dont take that cr@p … youll receive an earful if shes cold

;)

[jimmy b]

John, crunching the numbers for a ball park is good. Actual testing is much better. I do believe if you test out the quilts in the back yard  in the duplex  under the conditions your looking for and decide you got the wrong temp. rating EE will probably swap them out for what you want if they are clean/like new condition, in of course in a reasonable amount of time.

Totally agree with Eric building in a buffer for unexpected temp drops is wise. I figure 10 deg. and I will still sleep well if it goes below even that I can still deal with it safely.

men are stupid and tolerate being cold and uncomfortable at night …

Eric is on his own here. I have a pretty slim kit as of right now but would still rather carry an extra 3 – 4 oz of insulation all day than to suffer miserably all night. Sleep is very important.  I’m a cold sleeper and would agree with your assessment of 20 and 0 deg quilts. Don’t mind about the difference in bags vs quilts. I  would rather a quilt but I find a little warmer quilt is needed over a full mummy bag but the quilt will still edge out the bag in weight. You will have to get appropriate head gear such as a down balaclava. If your feet get cold remember no tight foot gear. Naked feet sleep warmer than blood restricting socks.

good luck

 

[John W]

Eric, Jimmy, thank you very much. I’m going to rent a couple of conventional 4.5lbs sleeping bags so we can try them out in the yard and assess our comfort zone vs EN 13537 ratings. No quilts for rent where I live now but we really have no choice. It’s either quilts or no outdoors. We choose quilts. :)

[Bob Shuff]

BTW…EE will also add down to your quilt.  I checked with them on an EE Rev 30 that I’ve had since 2014, and their prices to add more down were reasonable.  That said, I decided to purchase an HG 20F Burrow with 2oz of extra down, during their black friday sale, and that will be my colder weather quilt.  EE 30 when temps are predicted for ~40 and up, HG 20 when it’s predicted ~15 and up, and both if it’s going to be in the teens or lower.  The extra insulation from my jacket is there if predictions are off and it’s colder than expected.

I’ll note that I usually try to hammock camp whenever possible, so the underquilt is maybe more important than the top quilt.  The HG burrow is narrower and shorter than my EE version because you can get away with that in a hammock.

[Link .]

Really pay attention to this point in Bob’s post, it can’t be stressed enough, especially for your wife. I would think for the colder temps you are talking about you would want something better than an xlite

An insulated pad is also critical in cold weather. I’m certainly not a cold-cold expert, but I’ve slept enough in the mid-20s to mid-30s and been cold at different times.  I  sometimes put a space blanket under my pad, and that seems to help.  I use both foam and inflatable pads when planning to sleep on snow.

[James holden]

one note is that some folks have had issues with the down shifting in quilts in both vertical and horizontal configuration, leaving cold spots … theres a few threads on BPL and reddit about it

since i have the old EE karo baffle quilt, i dont seem to have the same issue (but the stitching is coming loose a bit on the karo baffles)

sometimes on sleeping bags without a divider (so one can shift down) folks have this issue as well …

the usual recommendation is to overfill it to avoid the issue …

as to actually paying to renting bags … i dont know how useful that would be as with synthetic bags (the kind u are gonna likely rent), the insulation might have degraded enough that the EN ratings are no longer reliable

if u absolutely know u want a quilt … perhaps you just have tto bite the bullet

in addition to a good high R-value pad, youll need to consider other non gear factors …

http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/maximising_your_bags_warmth

read this as well if you havent already

https://www.mammut.ch/documents/Schlafsaecke/Downloads/Sleep%20Well/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf

;)

[jimmy b]

Like Eric says in the end you gotta bite the bullet but no worries ’cause gear swap, here, is a great place to sell gear that may not work out for you and is beyond a reasonable return time frame. If the gear is well cared for and desired like EE quilts you can nearly get what you paid for it. A little discount off the top , pay for shipping and of course no tax and its a bargain for many here.

 

 

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

John,

I sounds like you might have something pretty awesome in mind with all this gear you’re buying.

I generally agree with your verdicts. I don’t think you’ll have any trouble using a 30F quilt with a nice parka like that and the other layers, especially if actually hitting 20F is just a rare thing and not the norm. You might be able to suffer out a 40F quilt, but it would be an aggressive choice. This kinda depends on what you have planned. If you’re envisioning winning wilderness races or something then maybe 40F, but if you just want to have fun backpacking then I’d go 30F.

That parka sounds sweet. 4.5oz fill is a bit light at -20C but yeah you’d be fine for 15-20 min.

My wife carries a down parka with 5oz fill (similar to the one planned for your gf) and for 20F conditions she still carries a 10F sleeping bag (well a -12C bag, I suspect we’re both in Canada). It’s a big psychological comfort for her. Sometimes she says she’s cold but not often. Mostly when she’s damp or underfed I suppose. I doubt she’s really cold at 20F because one night we got to -29C and she didn’t even notice. Anyways, if your GF really is a cold sleeper then it might be wise to go 10F.

 

 

[John W]

Owning something light as XLites is more important for us than getting down to some precise temperature. No problem if we find out we are good down to freezing point only. Anyway we’ll not be planning any serious days-from-civilization hikes at these lower temps and we could supplement with space blankets and hand/feet warmers when we feel the need.

So maybe I should be aiming not exactly at 20F but at matching the temp XLites will get us (R-values 3.2 for me and 3.9 for her). I’ve seen Andy Kirkpatrick’s article before, also read a lot of Andrew Skurka – really helped develop my clothing system. Have not seen the Mammut article, will get started with it! :)

We are not from the US and returns or sells would definitely be a hassle. There will be customs fees for importing from the US. So I’d better get a better idea before the bullet comes to my teeth. ;)

Dan, since I now live in the mountains for better part of the year I decided to upgrade my experience to living more under a tent than under the roof. It will allow us to spend more time outdoors and get further in more comfortable pace vs rushing back down the hill before it gets dark. No races and I don’t really care so much for extra couple hundred grams behind my back.

The weight bottleneck is in carry-on air travel restrictions. Some time ago I’ve take on nomadic lifestyle and while I may stay in one place for a whole skiing season, I don’t really have a permanent home where I regularly return and am willing to store extra gear for that extra coldest degrees. All my possessions are to be in my backpack therefore I’m reluctant to grow its weight. That is the reason for getting the Duplex etc.

As to rental bag degradation and inaccurate ratings, I hope we will be at least able to estimate our warmth relative to each other with this experiment. Also we’ll try zipping our bags together and see how that goes.

[James holden]

get her an xtherm, not an xlite …

the extra R value is worth it below freezing … not to mention the lower materiel is more durable

;)

[Jim Colten]

>get her an xtherm, not an xlite …

Ditto that.

John: You earlier said something along the lines of “no problem if we …”

There is no “we” with a separate pad and separate quilt.  If your girl gets cold easily she may very well be cold (not just chilled) at 30 degrees on a xlite with a good 20 degree quilt (EE’s are good).    The xtherm would be the best extra 3 ounces she carries (4 ounces if she prefers size large)

[John W]

XTherm seems to make sense, the temperature graph at Cascade Designs places W’s XLite about 8-9F warmer than Men’s and I think we are more than 10F apart. Not too late to swap her XLite for it. We’ll think it over.
Xlite
Xlite W
Xtherm

I’ve bought a thermometer and going to rent some ultra-heavy conventional sleeping equipment to try and figure out how much warmer in degrees I am than her when using same gear. It should clarify sleeping pad and quilt warmth difference we would need.

Do I understand correctly that without parka draping the Men’s XLite matches best with 20F quilt?

I really like the idea of a shared quilt for hugging and sharing warmth but several issues concern me:
– I tend to get in bed later than her and cold drafts when I’ll get in might not be awesome (do I overthink here because being a furnace I’ll be able to hug her and make up for it?)
– extra weight and volume if I decide to go solo
– she certainly needs a warmer pad than me, I would not consider anything less than W’s XLite for her, such warm double pad would add at least 200 grams to 2xXLite system and again extra weight for solo flying (combined with double quilt most definitely becomes too much for me)
– if going with separate pads I’m afraid of pad gap issue, though I’ve seen a topic here where people strapped their NeoAirs successfully in a 69 configuration

Difference in metabolism vs common quilt warmth should be easily fixed by draping both our parkas over her, one at torso the other over legs.

PS. We like the idea of boiling some water and placing the bottle into quilt for extra warm-up before sleep.

[Bob Moulder]

As a precaution, have some 1/2″ thick closed cell foam (CCF) pads to put ON TOP of your Xlite air mats for extra insulation.

No matter what the charts say, those Xlites alone aren’t going to get the job done at freezing or below regardless of what quilt you are using. Quilts and sleeping bags are frequently blamed for being inadequate when in many cases it’s the sleep mat that’s the real problem.

Get out as soon as possible and do some actual testing. Sleep systems are so personal and subjective that you can’t predict their effectiveness for a particular individual. As mentioned above, as an engineering exercise the numbers charts will get you ‘in the ballpark’ (or soccer stadium, perhaps?) but there’s no substitute for setting up camp and settling in for a warm night’s sleep… hopefully.

[John W]

Reporting back with test results.

Gear
Tent: some rental double wall tent from a local manufacturer unknown to me before
Bags: rental sleeping bags (EN13537 rated as 0C (32F) comfort (“Women’s”) / -6C (21F) limit (“Men’s”))
Mats: Therm-a-Rest Ridgerest Classic

Clothes
Head: merino balaclava
Torso: 170 gsm merino long sleeve, 150 gsm merino long sleeve, 160 gsm fleece
Legs: thin poly long johns from a local store
Feet: liner merino blend socks, thicker merino blend socks

Night 1
Temp: -10C (14F) before bed, -12C (10F) at 2-3 AM.

Tried using a sleeping bag without its hood and using the hood of my parka while using its body as a pillow. Was not very comfortable when turning and too cold on my face. Got the sleeping bag’s hood over my head that night.
After tossing, turning and getting used to a foam pad, I’ve slept about 3 hours and woke up refreshed and wanting to pee. Got up, made the deed and after some funny youtube videos on my phone fell asleep again. 3 more hours of sleep and woke up feeling very good and full of energy. I was very surprised with sleep quality that night.

Overall I was warm but my feet were chilly, which I attributed to lack of skill. On first awakening I found myself slided down the mat and my feet touching the groundsheet. I went peeing in my meshed trail runners with trash bags over my socks. The trail runners had snow frozen all over their meshes which contributed to some additional conductive heat loss from my feet. I placed another mat below my feet so that sliding down would be harmless. After final awakening AFAIR my feet were cool again which I then attributed to my feet sticking directly against tent wall in the morning – not so sure this was really the reason. Also during the night I’ve put on my Prana Brion nylon pants for additional leg warmth.

There was ice on tent inner walls and also some condensation near the sleeping bag’s neck area.

Night 2 (not consecutive)
Temp: -2C (28F) before bed and sometime during the night

I was too warm in my two merino long sleeves and fleece, left only one long sleeve, long johns and a thinner pair of socks. Wanted to get rid of long johns also but was reluctant to lie naked in a rental bag. Had a blanket draped over sleeping mats to provide additional comfort. If I remember correctly, once again my feet toes were a bit chilly on wakeup. Otherwise, all warm.

My girlfriend tried getting in her bag that night wearing a down jacket on top of everything else. She strongly resisted taking it off, so not a surprise that she was very warm. She left the bag in a couple of hours due to headache (not related to sleeping in a tent).

Again, ice on tent walls and condensation on the bag’s neck area.

Night 3 (not consecutive)
Temp: -5..-6C (22F) before bed and sometime during the night

Left the blanket at home but took a normal pillow for my head. The wind was good that night and I’ve left more space between the ground and outer tent walls this night, so I was surprised to see no ice on the walls and no condensation on sleeping bag’s neck area. My feet were a bit cool again (in spite of extra mat and a backpack between my feet and tent walls for sliding insurance) and had kinda chilly knees, though I did bend them enough to stretch out the bag.

Hope to get my girlfriend into the tent sometime soon again, she’s not always feeling very well right now due to her period. Going solo for night 4 now. The more data I’ll have, the better. I have yet to try the system out with the bag used as a quilt and I’m curious to try out a single R-2.6 Ridgerest under me in this configuration. But tonight I’m going with standard hooded sleeping bag configuration and two Ridgerests underneath to make certain that my legs don’t get cold from the ground. Would like to achieve a night with warm feet in the end.

Current results get me thinking that maybe with addition of fleece pants I can take it 10F colder than average male.

[jimmy b]

Sound like your testing is off to a great start. Your gonna learn fast as to what your going to need with the real life results your getting.

Not sure if your socks are restrictive but although it sounds counter intuitive try taking off the socks one night to see how that goes. I am a cold sleeper with terrible circulation in my feet and down to around the high 20F’s I sleep with no foot gear. I learned my socks were negatively effecting the warmth with blood restriction.  Last trip I had along my fleece mittens (as my hands are just as bad) and just for kicks slipped them over my toes loosely. Worked great.

[Eric Osburn]

I would also recommend an xtherm for at least your wife. I’m a big fan of my xtherm and have used it with a ridgerest comfortably down to single digit temps without feeling cold.

[John W]

Night 4
Temps: I guess around -2C (28F), unfortunately I sat on my thermometer and broke it in half last time.

Got two Ridgerests under me, both long sleeves and fleece for my torso, long johns and pants for my legs and finally an additional third pair of thicker wool socks. Also decided to leave merino liner gloves on my hands.

Made a fresh hot tea and put the bottle near my feet. Slept well and at no point during the night did my feet feel anything but warm. Underwear was a bit moist in the morning, so maybe I was even a bit too warm.

[John W]

Night 5 was not very interesting. Temps +2 to +5C (35-41F), two Ridgerests, I was totally warm.

Night 6
Temps: 0-2C (32-35F)

My girlfriend decided to come along this time. I added a blanket folded in half under her on top of her mat to aid with comfort and insulation. From the start she told me she dislikes mummy style and I helped her set it up like a quilt (unzipped, open part underneath, parka hood for the head), she liked it better. Warmed up from a hot bottle she took her fleece layer off. About 4.5 hours into the night she was chilly in her baselayers and went inside. So here’s a reference point for her at last.

I was sleeping on a single mat with my sleeping bag also in quilt mode. Wore my pants instead of my itchy poly long johns. Felt some chills in my leg where it was in contact with the mat. but my feet were ok) in the morning. Not “I’m trembling” chills but the kind that probably prevents you from falling asleep again. My core in a single merino baselayer was ok.
Looking again at Thermarest graphs I can deduce that using XLite with a quilt at 20F might be on the edge for me if not using additional leg insulation like fleece pants.

[Author]

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