Broke newbie with kids – help!

Before the gear itself, I’d stress to KEEP IT FUN.  That may mean shorter mileage or more kid-friendly than you’re thinking of.  Our early trips, when the kids were 3 and 8 were only 3 miles in, to a cabin, with frozen pizza (easy to transport during an Alaskan winter).  Bring games.  Plan some fun activities.  Fire-lighting contests.  Cooking food over a fire.  Sa’mores.  Scavenger hunts in nature.

Prioritize that gear which you can’t easily substitute something else for.  For younger kids, a school daypack carries as much weight as should be on their back.  $7 closed-cell foam pads get you started.  Tarps can be used instead of tents, especially if you check the weather forecast in advance.  Since you’re willing to MYOG stuff, search the threads about $20 Costco down quilts.  The roll of Tyvek isn’t a bad idea.  4-mil or 6-milpoly sheeting (sold as painter’s drop clothes) is even cheaper (although not at tough.  I see reasonable packs at times at Goodwill for $5-$15.  Throwing everything in the sleeping bag and using a diamond hitch lets you skip the pack bag (saves weight!) but carry everything on a frame.  Not fancy, not great for heavy loads, but if you keep the weight down, it suffices.

Check out Sierra Trading Post.  Self-inflating sleeping pads there start at $25.

Try to get to know other families or groups that our doing trips – hopefully you can borrow some gear as you put together your own kits.

Bleach is cheaper than any filter.

Look at youtube videos of “UL gear under $200”.  I did a list for local pilots of a UL setup for under $100.

There are lots of youtube video about thru-hiker food from Walmart.  You don’t have to spend any more for food on the trail than around town.

BRS-3000T stove.  $14.  Duh.

Things that are otherwise a dreary task become fun when there is some competition involved.  Pit the kids against each other to build and test their own soda-can alcohol stoves, online research allowed.  Let each kid plan a meal and then all vote on the results.

It does seem your sleeping bags are the biggest potential weight savings.  Before jumping into $200 quilts, look at the lower-cost ways to stay warm at night – wear a good hat, pick a good campsite (not in the open, not in a low spot), use some decent-R-value pad under you (which could be cheap closed-cell foam).

There really is no problem using heavier conventional gear.   It works.  It’s worked for many many years.

A 5lb tent split between two people, is the same as a 2.5 lb tent that one person carries.  When my son and I go together we often take a 4.5 lb tent .

Most of the weight issue is still…… Things you don’t need.

If you don’t have aspirations to walk 20 miles a day, it’s not really that important. There’s a reason why Scouts typically hike  7 miles a day or so.

Do try to get your weight down, but make getting out there and having fun first priority.

In general, swap out big things first that will save you the most absolute weight, so that would be your shelter, sleeping bag/quilt, and pad. Get the new pack last, or at least after you’ve gotten lighter versions of most/all of your other gear, because you don’t need a new pack big enough to carry the old stuff that then will be too big once you’ve pared down.

I also suggest you look to acquiring what you think will be the “final” piece of gear for a given category, rather than something to tide you over now until you can get something better in the future. Yes it’s a bigger hit in the short term, but it actually will cost you more in the long run if you buy gear twice (or more times over). Your idea for making tyvek tarps, for example — if you do that and then buy purpose-built shelter(s) a year from now, that will cost you more in total than if you had just bought those shelter(s) in the first place.

JR: I’m going to differ a bit on the “buy the best (lightest) stuff”.  I agree, for many, if you have a functional set-up when you start to drink the UL Kool-ade, and you then go from a 4-pound bag to a 3-pound bag to 2-pound bag to a 1-pound quilt, then you should have stuck with the traditional gear a bit longer and taken that last step first.

But Christie is wanting to get her tweener and teenagers out on the trail with limited *funds* right now.  I’ll point out that she also has limited *time* since they’re 16, 14, and 11.  At some point, they get busier in school, sports, a BF, after-school jobs and it gets very hard to pull the whole family together on a trip.

Grandma Gatewood (age 67) didn’t even have a Tyvek tarp for her 2,168-mile AT trip (she used a plastic shower curtain), so that $600 ZPacks Duplex tent might never need to be purchased.

Yes, people have been using rectangular Coleman sleeping bags with flannel linings printed with pheasants and ducks and hunters to backpack with forever.  And it works.  For shorter distances.

The fastest and cheapest weight savings are always just leaving things at home – anything you didn’t use on the last trip.

But if you cut the weight of 10 small items in half, you just saved a pound or two.  Share a single traveler-sized toothpaste.  At least downsize from adult toothbrushes to child toothbrushes.  Cut the bottom off a gallon milk jug and you have a lighter (and infinitely cheaper) bowl than anything in the camping aisle.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you can save a bundle if you make your own gear.

I did this many years ago when I started my teenagers on backpacking after years of car camping.  I needed gear for five people (me, wife, three teenagers), and buying a lot of new stuff was out of the question.

I started with ponchos and rain pants, easy and cheap if you look for fabric sales.  Also stuff sacks, then tarps and ground cloths.  I got lightweight backpacks (name brands/models to be sure of quality) on Ebay.  I made a two-person quilt, got some used sleeping bags on Ebay (again name brands/models) but ran out of time before a big trip and had to buy the last one new (on sale, though) at a local outdoor store.  I also later found used GoreTex rain suits on Ebay (name brands).

Anyway, I saved a bundle by starting making simple things and working my way up to more difficult items.

I started the transition to lighter weight backpacking about 3 years ago and am still on the journey. Your MYOG ideas sound really cool!

I think the most important thing I did was to buy a good kitchen scale and weigh everything. It was shocking how much weight a bunch of simple changes made – swap in smart water/ gatorade bottles for Nalgene, swap in Aqua Mira for an old school filter pump, a tiny multi-tool for my trusty (but heavy) Swiss Army Knife. A couple of other thoughts: if your tent has a footprint, replace it with polycryo. Weigh your stuffsacks (a mosquito head-net makes a pretty good stuffsack). I also weighed all our clothes and picked lighter stuff. If you do buy a squeeze filter, then you can take advantage of water along the trail and not carry any extra water weight.

On our first trip out with lighter gear I was so proud of myself that I got our packs under 25lbs each.  Our 5 year old didn’t carry a thing. When we got to camp I found out that my husband was so excited about his pack weight that he’d thrown in an extra blanket, a pair of leather boots, and a giant hardcover book!!! So I guess I didn’t need to work quite so hard at reducing weight. It does make backpacking much more pleasant, though.

 ….put together tarps for shelter for each person …

I think it is lighter to have 2 x 2-3 person tents than 4 x 1 person tents and it offers almost the same flexibility as individual tents

…and DIY Tyvek packs for the kids (I already have an OK pack).  …

I think you would get more DIY bang for your buck making a quilt over a backpack.  The younger two should be able to get by with there school backpack.  I would try to find something for the sixteen y.o. at Goodwill.  If that doesn’t Sierra Trading Post often has good deals on decent backpacks… and if that doesn’t work, you can look at cheap Chinese knockoffs from Amazon.

Hey Dave, I don’t think we are as far apart as you may think. I merely wanted to suggest that Christie consider the idea of what “costs more” in a broader context. Not knowing her actual funds-available situation, the “take the last step first” approach might be attainable, and it’s an approach that doesn’t have to be applied to everything but can be used to evaluate each individual purchase. She sounds like she already has much of what is needed, albeit heavy and bulky, as she is talking about some DIY tarps and a few other odds and ends to make her current kit work for now, so for things like sleeping bags the “take the last step first” approach might be the best way to go. Or not. Just trying to help her consider prudent decisions for both the short term and long term. I agree with your advice, I’m not trying to be contrary to that but rather to posit that she have a full spectrum of considerations in making the wisest choices. =)

Very true nobody “needs” the latest whiz-bang gear — heck, John Muir didn’t even have a shower curtain.

Thanks for the input.  I will definitely take more experienced perspectives into consideration as I figure out how to cobble together the things we need.  It’s good to know that maybe the tents we have will work after all.  I’ll have to haul them out and get a definite weight to make that decision.  Gear X4 gets pricey quick! Fortunately my two teens are strapping lads, so if I am not able to get the weight down as much as I’d like, I know they’ll handle it just fine.

3 mil plastic may be better than Tyvek for tarps.  Nylon cord between a couple trees.  Something like 9 foot square plastic.  Put a styrofoam peanut in each corner and tie some nylon cord around it to tie to a tent stake.  That was my first backpack tent.  in 1960s.  Except I used thicker plastic with grommets in he corners.

First – congrats and good luck on this effort.  Getting the family outside and interacting with each other and nature seems pretty rare in these Snapchat days, at least where I live.

Second – not sure where you are but in a lot of the world it’s worth being paranoid about Lyme disease.  Do buy the permithrin spray, and make sure to do everyone’s shoes, socks, and at least the bottom of the pants.  And then check for ticks everyday before the sun goes down.  Here’s a little article.

It’s hard to top some of the great advice already given on here, especially Dave T’s.

So I’ll try to add some comments outside of what he already covered.

In 2015 we were camped on the north end of the Wind River Range in Wyoming, at Green River Lakes campground, when a group from NOLS (the National Outdoor Leadership School), set up at an adjacent site.  The students were all teen-aged girls.  I think the leaders were co-ed.   They had a few teepee style shelters as well as a large blue Kmart style tarp.  I’d guess that 4 or 5 of the students slept under that tarp, pitched low to the ground.  It was day 1 of a long multi-day back country trip they were starting.

So, if your tents don’t work out, and you’re not in big tick territory, I’d vote for trying tarps, even blue KMart style ones.  If they’re good enough for NOLS, they should be good enough for just about anybody.

Second, I just did my very first back country trip that included my daughter AND her soon to be 6-year-old son.  We hiked 1.2 miles into a small lake on National Forest land.

Trip Pics Here if you care.

What I’m learning from him and from talking/reading about NOLS.  Good food and good company can make even a “Type 2” trip seem fun.  For our little trip, making a little fire with wet wood in a twig stove so that we could do s’mores, plus having hot chocolate and a fresh made muffin for breakfast were highlights of the trip for him.

I’ve noted that NOLS doesn’t have the budget for fancy freeze dried or dehydrated foods.  They use lots of basic off the shelf ingredients, and spend more time in food prep on the trail than most ultralight thru-hikers would bother with.  I would try to borrow or purchase a copy of “NOLS Cookery” cookbook if you’re interested.   Your library might have it, and I’ve seen it used online for as cheap as $2.00 for a used one.

However, one advantage that you have over NOLS groups is that you have pre-trip preparation time on your side.  I would keep my eye out for a cheap food dehydrator at garage sales or thrift stores.  Friends of mine in our local backpacking club have found the “Nesko” brand ones for as low as $10.00.  I dehydrated off the shelf marinara sauce last week, and cooked Harry (my grandson) penne noodles with marinara sauce for dinner.  It’s one of his favorites and it was a big hit.   Lightweight to carry in noodles and dehydrated sauce powder, and cheap too now that I own the dehydrator.

A final thought.  Your two older boys sound like they can handle their loads.  What about the 11-year old?  I was surprised by how bulky my grandson’s REI Kindercone 32 degree synthetic bag was, and that’s a “big brand” REI bag!  I’ve vowed to sew him a synthetic quilt using Climashield Apex.  Lots of articles in the MYOG forums about this.  You probably can’t afford to sew quilts for everyone, but your 11-year-old may appreciate the lighter weight and more compact size in his knapsack, backpack, whatever.

Christie, you don’t say where you live, but if you’re near an REI the several-times-yearly Garage Sales can be a good source for picking up gear.  The items range from those at the end of their life to things that have only been used once or have cosmetic “defects.”  One word of caution:  you can get great deals on tents, but be sure to set them up before purchasing.  Sometimes customers returning an item “forget” that maybe a pole is missing or there is a giant rip in the rainfly.  Good luck and have fun!

Jeff mentions thrift stores for a dehydrator and that’s true – like exercise machines, more people *think* they’ll dehydrate lots of food and then notice it’s been unused for years.

But I’ve also found great buys on clothing and occasionally hard goods at thrift stores.  For clothing (fleece, rain jackets, down jackets), I look first for a high-end label.  Only then do I bother to look at the size and condition.  After a few decades of pile and then fleece, we’ve returned to down as a UL garment.  Those 1970’s down jackets (give it a sniff test first) can be a lot of warmth (day AND night) for the weight and for only $10.  And maybe get a little luggage digital scale off of eBay for $4, so you quickly weigh a jacket, pack or tent in a thrift store or garage sale and compare the weight savings / cost to new gear.

Packs, too: Black Diamond, Caribou, Camptrails, Jansport, Antelope all made more minimalist packs in 1970s and even into the early 1980s before everything got so “heavy-duty” and “expedition tough”.  An older nylon pack bag on a lighter aluminum frame for $20 can be 2.5-3 pounds which is a lot less than a modern “traditional” pack at 5-6 pounds (for $250!) and not much heavier than some $150-$200 UL options.  The most common improvement to one of those older packs is a modern style hip belt followed by shoulder straps that attach below your shoulders instead of at/just above your shoulders.  There are threads on BPL about MYOGing your own UL hip belts and shoulder straps.

The other thrift store trick is that while you shouldn’t dress in cotton; polyester and wool do well.  Men’s and Women’s wool or polyester slacks are actually pretty functional outdoors.  And really cheap at a thrift store.  Sure, my $180 dri-down puffy is really light, but a wool sweater always works, even when wet.  And scan each garment on enough racks and you’ll find some more modern, thin, merino wool garments to use in layers.

Oh, and yet another thrift store idea:  If you’re going to MYOG gear, sometimes fabric is cheaper in the form of an existing thrift-store garment than at the fabric store (Man! fabric stores operate on a high margin!).  Certainly down is cheaper that way.  And if you get into MYOGing any clothing, it is far easier to start with a existing garment and cut it down to a better fit and lighter weight than to start from scratch.

Lots of great advice above.

The fact that you like to DIY opens up lots of options.

For tarps, I would get some silnylon seconds yardage, some grosgrain ribbon for tieouts, and look on the MYOG pages here for designs. Oware often has quantities of 2nds silnylon cheap (https://shop.bivysack.com/Fabrics-Fasteners-Webbing-and-Cord_c10.htm)–I’ve ordered from them in the past and was happy with the quality.

For backpacks, +1 to using what you have. For years, my lightweight backpack was an old JanSport convertible suitcase backpack with the stays taken out, a rolled up closed cell foam pad inside for structure, and a laundry delicates bag safety pinned to the back as a mesh pocket for drying wet gear.

For sleeping bags, check out Craigslist which is nice because you can see the condition before you buy. Though you say down is out of your budget, I’ve gotten down sleeping bags for $20 (Kelty Cosmic Down 20) to $60 (a -5*F EMS bag) that were only used once or twice before the person decided they didn’t like camping. A bottle of down wash is about $10.  Or, as mentioned above, make your own Climashield Apex quilt with seconds ripstop nylon from a place like DIY Gear Supply for about $60.

Also check out the DIY forums on HammockForums.net. Hammocks really up the fun factor! Here’s a guide to making a hammock out of an inexpensive tablecloth https://theultimatehang.com/2013/10/29/make-hammock-3-minutes/, and a bug net from sheer curtains https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQRoEpK-7SY.  I’ve done both of these projects and they’re great.

Best of luck, and have fun out there with your kids!

Some good news is that we found two “vintage” external frame packs in the attic.  I knew I had picked up a couple at garage sales over the years with good intentions, but I thought my grown sons had taken all the serviceable ones with them when they moved out.  I was wrong!  One needed some repairs, but a salvaged set of shoulder straps from an old work bag, some leftover webbing from my sewing stash, and a few grommets later and my teens now both have good, lightweight packs in the 2-3 lb range.  I also had a youth size aluminum frame (no pack) lying around, also a garage sale find several kids ago, that fits my 11 yo pretty well.  With a few additions it should work for her and hopefully be a more comfortable option than the schoolbag style.

We’re still working on figuring out the sleeping bag/quilt scenario.  I will look into the MYOG quilt option and see if it’s affordable enough.  I also took a peek at the Costco down throws online and that’s under consideration as an option, especially given the option to use/adapt them for hammock use. Hammocking is definitely on the horizon for me, but I don’t think I can afford to outfit the entire family at this point.  The nearest REI locations are 1.5-2 hrs away, which is a bit further than I can manage this month.  I don’t think clothes will be too hard.  We have wool sweaters that already get some good use while camping, but I didn’t think to look for thrift store pants.  Great idea!

I have kids and I get most of their stuff from Sierra Trading Post, Columbia Outlet, Patagonia Worn Wear, and 2nd Track Sports.

Columbia has a rewards program, same as cash incentives and massive discounts several times a year at the outlet. I highly recommend it.

https://wornwear.patagonia.com offers repairs and trade in for worn gear. Plus they are one of the more serious companies about environmentalism.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but – keep it short. not just miles per day but days. Food is heavy, and short trips mean less food, so it helps a lot. Plus if you have any gear issues they don’t last so long, and the general impression will be happier, kids will be ready for next time.

Oh, and with the strapping lads – if they are like mine were they will be vying for who can carry the most stuff rather than wanting a lighter pack. My plan would be load them up so that they don’t leave the 11 yr old behind.