- Sep 8, 2017 at 12:26 pm #3489899
One of my next myog projects is a wind shirt and I’m not sure what fabric to use. Breathability is more important to me than water resistance. Reading through old threads about the Patagonia houdini, I think I’m looking for a fabric similar to the pre-2013 houdini which according to Richard Nisley had a CFM of 35. Considering that downproof fabrics are <10 CFM, I need something non-downproof and preferably under 1 osy. It looks the most common myog fabrics (Argon, M50, M90, Nobul, Ventum, Membrane 10) don’t fit the bill due to their calendering and the only uncalendered options I’ve found (1.0 HyperD, 1.0 Robic, 1.1 Ripstop Nylon) are heavier than I would prefer so what would you recommend?Sep 8, 2017 at 1:13 pm #3489910
I had a similar question about fabric for a bugproof shirt a while back and ended up calling owfinc.com on the phone. They recommended a couple of different fabrics and sent me small sample pieces in a couple of different colors. They seemed quite knowledgeable and were very helpful.Sep 8, 2017 at 1:45 pm #3489914
Jim ColtenBPL Member
Ripstop by the Roll offers a couple non calendared nylons weighing around 1osy in a variety of colors. I don’t think I saw any under 1osy
For myself … I’d value breathability more than the last few tenths of an ounce of windshirt weight so 1osy isn’t bad at all.Sep 9, 2017 at 4:35 am #3490020
Eric BlancheBPL Member
@eblancheLocale: Northeast US
I plan on doing a windshirt with the 1.0 hyperD uncalendered. This fabric is super soft feeling and I think would do great for windpants as well. I’m not too sure on the specs but dutchware.com also has some options but again not going to be under 1 ozy.Sep 9, 2017 at 8:56 am #3490055
@jimmyjamLocale: Mid Atlantic
I’ve made a couple using the the kit from thru_hiker.com: http://thru-hiker.com/kits/lr_shell_kit.php
I added a hood to the second one I made. The wind shirt is my favorite piece of gear, used almost everyday that I hike.Sep 9, 2017 at 9:15 am #3490057
I like the 1 oz Robic fabric from RSBR. Good breathability and good durability for the weight. I imagine the HH is pretty low though.
I agree with Jim, and in any case, wouldn’t want to go lower than 20D for a wind-shirt. A wind-shirt uses uses about a couple yards of fabric, and there won’t be much weight difference between a .67 and a 1 oz/yd2 fabric, but there will be a noticeable durability difference.
I would order a fabric sample pack and see which one you like the most.Sep 9, 2017 at 9:27 am #3490061
Thanks for all of the responses. I guess I was being a little optimistic hoping to go under 1 osy. I’ll look into owfinc -their 0.9 oz. ripstop looks intriguing- and otherwise I’ll likely go with RobicSep 10, 2017 at 4:23 pm #3490231
Fyi 1.0 robic has been replaced with 1.2 robic and there are only a couple colors left in the 1.0. It’s discontinued so you might not want to count on it.Sep 10, 2017 at 6:06 pm #3490242
Btw I’ll add that I would take a look at Argon 90 from Dutchware. Older threads on breathable fabrics have it being more breathable than momentum and pertex quantum.Sep 11, 2017 at 7:10 pm #3490455
Thanks for the heads up on robic 1.0 being discontinued. I’ll make sure to snag some before it goes out of stock. Argon 90 is definitely my top choice among calendered fabrics based on the reviews of Luke’s windshirt, but I’d like to pursue uncalendered options first.Sep 13, 2017 at 10:08 pm #3490859
Edward John MBPL Member
Whatever the weight you are trying to hit do not use Robic for a windshirt.
It doesn’t have sufficient vapour transmission and you will get very sweaty very quicklySep 13, 2017 at 10:13 pm #3490860
^^^you must be thinking of the robic 7d with the PU coating, in which case I would agree. However, the robic 1.0 in question is a VERY breathable, non-coated, non-calendered hammock material that has very high vapor transmission. I have slept on it and can tell you it’s extremely breathable.Sep 14, 2017 at 12:20 am #3490873
Edward John MBPL Member
Ah OK Yes mine was the PU coated stuff I almost drowned inside it
I didn’t realise that the heavier was uncoated, the UL is great for quilt outers thoSep 14, 2017 at 6:37 am #3490880
What about Argon .67?Sep 14, 2017 at 11:44 am #3490925
Agree with Hoosier, I have some of the 1 oz Robic and it is quite breathable.
I didn’t realize that they were phasing it out though.Sep 14, 2017 at 8:55 pm #3491009
Craig BBPL Member
Interestingly, I just got done collecting samples of all the lightweight fabrics like this that I could find to see what they’re all like. I got the usual suspects from Ripstop by the Roll, Dutchware, Thru-hiker, and Z-packs. I was also interested in finding the most breathable, but for down rather than a wind shirt. I already made a windshirt from Robic 7D because it was the LEAST permeable material like this, and also seemed quite tough for the weight. I want my windshirt to block as much wind as possible, so when I put it on over my down jacket it will actually do something more than the down alone, since it really has no insulative value by itself (other than a vapor ‘restrictor’ rather than barrier).
Anyway, I tested all of the samples many times with my ‘calibrated’ mouth flow/pressure sensor to see how easy it was to blow through them, and rank them with respect to each other. It was all very scientific of course! Here’s how I would rank their air permeability from least to most:
- 0.74 Oz Robic 7D
- 1.0 HyperD Calendared
- 0.9 Membrane 15
- 0.9 Momentum 90, 0.67 Momentum 67, 0.7 Ventum (could not tell the difference between these)
- 0.9 Argon 90
- 0.67 Argon 67 Taffeta
- 0.67 Argon 67
- 0.66 Membrane 10
- 1.1 Ion Uncalendared
- 1.0 Robic XL
- 1.0 HyperD Uncalendared
To me, things don’t really seem to be permeable until about Argon90, and there’s a pretty noticeable difference between Argon90 and the ones in #4. Then there’s a pretty noticeable jump from Argon90 to Argon67. Once you hit the 3 uncalendared ones on the bottom of the list, they feel pretty permeable, with 1.0 HyperD as the clear winner. If you fold a cotton t-shirt so there are 4 layers of material and blow through it, that’s about what the 1.0 HyperD feels like.
The 1.0 HyperD uncalendared is also the softest, and a follower of these forums might note that I tried to use it on my myog down jacket that I posted about a while ago as the inner liner. Sadly, it was not as downproof as I had hoped, so that’s not the best application for it! (My next down jacket will be made from Argon67 shell and Membrane10 liner)
Sep 16, 2017 at 2:29 am #3491224
- This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Craig B.
Thank you for the testing and list Craig. Have you read about the coffee filter(s) to rough CFM equivalents written by Richard Nisley here? I would be interested in seeing your list in comparison to those as well.
Not sure I fully understand the reasoning for the 7D Robic windshirt, even if you’re combining it with a down jacket.
Even if you’re using it to boost a sewn through baffled down jacket’s insulation, it doesn’t necessarily need to be super low CFM to help boost same. Meanwhile, you lose it as an effective active piece unless you’re hiking flats in very cold temps and/or extremely windy conditions.
Basically it’s been ascertained by people (primarily discussed by Richard Nisley) a lot more learned in this area than self, that an ideal windjacket fabric has a CFM of around 35 if you’re going to use it as an active piece, going up and down hills and mountains.
That’s the main benefit of a wind-shirt/jacket to begin with–it’s much more breathable than a rain jacket, blocks just enough wind, while allowing much of your moisture to permeate out. The 7D Robic fabric is a bit closer to a rain jacket material than it is to a windshirt material.Sep 16, 2017 at 12:52 pm #3491291
Richard NisleyBPL Member
@richard295Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Very persceptive DIY CFM tester you have! I took the small subset of fabrics which I have lab tested and compared it to your list and they showed good correlation:
You said, “To me, things don’t really seem to be permeable until about Argon90, and there’s a pretty noticeable difference between Argon90 and the ones in #4”. I tested the #4 at 4.7 CFM / 597.5 HH and Argon 90 at 40.13 CFM / 351.5 HH.
You said, “Then there’s a pretty noticeable jump from Argon90 to Argon67”. I tested Argon 67 at 48.92 CFM / 210.9 HH.
I haven’t tested any of the other fabrics you mentioned but, my comparisons indicate your DIY tester is reasonably accurate.Sep 17, 2017 at 2:38 pm #3491548
Craig BBPL Member
Haha! Good to know I’m on the right track, thanks Richard!
Justin: yeah, I realize I’m venturing outside of the conventional wisdom with my Robic 7D windshirt, especially with confirmation from Edward about drowning in his! I’m generally a fair weather hiker, and If I’m going up a trail with my pack on expending a fair amount of energy, I will be way too hot for a windshirt anyway. I got a pair of Pearl Izumi sun sleeves that I put on along with my t-shirt which works in those situations to block the sun and keep me cool (the sleeves are white and surprisingly good at wicking). I put the wind shirt on when my energy output drops and I’m not producing so much moisture, like at a rest stop or around camp. I just don’t feel like I’m getting a good return on my couple ounce weight allowance unless the wind shirt does something a little more substantial, like block wind. Of course I could be wrong, and I might be more comfortable with something else, but I have not tried out any of the high permeability shirts yet! I’m a bit new to the UL thing (discovered it about a year ago), and since I like to make my own stuff, I was coming at it from an engineering perspective and this SEEMED like a good way to do it, so I’m giving it a shot. This whole UL thing is a fun engineering puzzle to play with!
Spencer: I give a thumbs up to the 1.0 Robic XL if you want something very breathable. I recently got a few more yards of a couple of the colors they had left. I like the shine and ripstop pattern more than any of the other fabrics, that’s why I chose it as my outer shell in my jacket. However, the uncalendared 1.0 HyperD is also pretty nice looking, a TINY bit softer when worn, and a tiny bit more permeable. I played with how my jacket felt when worn with the HyperD or Robic side against my skin, and I just barely had a preference for the HyperD (except for the few extra feathers that were poking through!) I would have been satisfied with using the Robic as a liner (more so if it wasn’t down of course).
Oh, and if you’re concerned about weight, my pattern measured 1.4 square yards and is probably about a medium. Add a bit for the seam allowance, so say 1.5 square yards. With 1.0 Oz weight fabric that’s 1.5 ounces material contribution to total weight. With 0.67 Oz fabric, it’s a 1 ounce contribution. The total weight of my windshirt is 2.2 Oz. with zipper, elastic, and a small pocket with velcro, and the Robic 7D fabric. So the impact the weight of the fabric has on total weight is lessened because half of total weight is decided by the add-ons like the zipper. So whether you choose a 1.0 or 0.67 Oz fabric, you’ll still have a pretty damn light windshirt.
CraigSep 17, 2017 at 4:22 pm #3491560
Based on Richard’s testing of Argon 90 at 40 CFM and 350 HH, I’m inclined to go with that fabric. My only question is how can the breathability be so high yet the fabric still be downproof? I’m also thinking I might make a few windshirts just to have some comparison. Someone informed me that Nobul 1, while advertised as downproof tends to leak feathers so that might be a good bridge between Argon and the #4 group fabrics. And 1.0 Robic would be the highly breathabie version.
I won’t have time to sew these for a couple months, but I’ll be sure to post a write-up when they’re complete.Sep 17, 2017 at 5:10 pm #3491566
Richard NisleyBPL Member
@richard295Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Argon 90’s high CFM combined with high HH is rare. Breathable weaves normally have fiber spacing variability which results in a low HH for a windshirt or down filament migration for an insulating garment. The fiber spacing is uniform in this fabric.Sep 21, 2017 at 4:31 am #3492216
John WBPL Member
Would the mentioned #8 0.66 oz Membrane 10 Nylon Taffeta be okay for a windshirt if it won’t be worn in the bushes?Sep 21, 2017 at 6:39 am #3492227
It’s some awefully light fabric for the task. It would probably only be a half oz difference to go up to Argon 90, which per the above, seems to strike a rare balance. Plus, the Argon would be a ripstop as opposed to the Membrane.Sep 21, 2017 at 8:49 am #3492259
John WBPL Member
Thanks, you’ve confirmed my suspicions. I’ll get the Argon samples and have a look.
I’m getting custom down jacket made from the 10D Membrane. I guess the Argon 90 windshirt will be a good layer over it for both protection and a little extra warmth.Sep 21, 2017 at 11:07 pm #3492477
Craig, if it works for you, then it works.
Speaking in general and to no one in particular: the Argon 90 looks like great stuff for a windshirt/jacket–certainly better than Robic 1oz. The latter would probably be a bit more durable, but the Argon has a really nice combo of near ideal CFM and unusually high HH for same.
Really wish I could get a fabric like that, treated with silicone either via an EPIC type process, or another as long as it’s durable.
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