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Best material for tieout reinforcements and what bonding agent w/ .68 camo DCF?


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Home Forums Gear Forums Make Your Own Gear Best material for tieout reinforcements and what bonding agent w/ .68 camo DCF?

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  • #3730289
    Monte Masterson
    BPL Member

    @septimius

    Locale: Changes Often

    I’ve never made a tarp out of DCF, only groundsheets with DCF11. The water retention of silnylon is finally getting to me, especially here in the more humid and wetter east. I don’t know what most gear makers and savvy DIY people use for bonded DCF reinforcements or what bonding agent. With silnylon I always used the same reinforcement material as the shelter because it provides the same amount of stretch, but with DCF that whole concept might not even matter.

    What’s the general consensus? Thank You.

    #3730335
    Diane “Piper” Soini
    BPL Member

    @sbhikes

    Locale: Santa Barbara

    I used single-sided DCF tape for bonding and I also sewed my tarp.

    Minimalist 2-P tarp shelter 8.75ft. x 5.75ft.

    #3730349
    Monte Masterson
    BPL Member

    @septimius

    Locale: Changes Often

    Yea Diane, I plan on sewing a flat felled seam to adjoin two 6′ X 4.5′ sections of DCF and then taping over with single sided DCF tape. I realize many pros and DIY’ers use double sided PSA tape and heat to bond seams, but for my purposes I think I’ll stick to sewing.

    When I ask about bonding I’m referring to the tieout reinforcements. I’ve been thinking about using stick on 1.6 oz per sq yd Dyneema repair patches from ZPacks. They’re rectangular and measure 5 1/4″ X 13.5″. Two of them would provide enough material to cut out 8 reinforcements. Then the question becomes should I sew the reinforcements or will the stick on bond well enough? I’m just wondering what adhesive is used to bond 2 regular pieces of DCF that don’t already have adhesive on them.

    https://zpacks.com/products/5-25-x-13-inch-large-repair-patch-clear-white

    #3730354
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    best to have tieout reinforcement the same material as the main fabric

    if the reinforcement is much stronger, it will take all the load and then transfer it to the main fabric along just the edge

    if the reinforcement is the same material, they’ll both stretch the same so the load will be distributed all across the material

    #3730355
    Monte Masterson
    BPL Member

    @septimius

    Locale: Changes Often

    That’s the concept I’ve always gone by with silnylon and silpoly Jerry, I mean to always use the same material (as shelter) for tieout reinforcements. But with DCF I thought it’s different. Seems like everything DCF I’ve seen like ZPacks tarps for example, have considerably heavier Dyneema tieout reinforcement material than the tarp/fly. I assumed it just had to do with the different properties of the materials in that DCF basically doesn’t stretch like silnylon and silpoly (to a lesser extent).

    #3730356
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    yeah, I don’t know how that concept translates to DCF.  Maybe the tape should optimally have the same stretchiness as the main fabric

    #3730490
    Stumphges
    BPL Member

    @stumphges

    Monte, this thread might be useful to you: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/testing-cuben-fiber-d-c-f-tarp-tieouts/

    If I was making a DCF tarp I would be tempted to try the method Brook describes in that thread, which follows Jerry’s reinforcement philosophy. On the other hand, a think a lot of people use a DCF variant with some kind of woven face fabric, because woven fabrics hold sewing in place much better than unwoven Dyneema fibers in the light DCF styles used for tarps and tents.

    #3734631
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Agree that using the same DCF material for the patch is best for the reasons stated by Jerry and others above.  But that means forgoing the DCF tapes (which I’d forgo anyway due to the weight) and using a liquid adhesive, spread very thin on both the patch and the tent material, after cleaning and drying with alcohol, and then clamping after application.

    There are so many liquid adhesives available that it becomes a PITA to select one. And the outside surface of DCF is a mylar-like material that is difficult to bond.  Indeed, they use an autoclave to bond it over the dyneema sandwich, which for me raises a red flag.

    Nevertheless, I’ve found a few that look promising, will test them out, and if anything looks good, will post it on this thread.  Ages ago, I tried every fabric glue I could find and they all flunked.  But there are some new offerings that look good and are available online and at the stores or the websites.  In the early days of Cuben, Loctite 2-part low viscosity was popular on BPL, but want to see what’s new.

    The reinforcement patches will be quarter moon-shaped, and while sewn and glued into the corner seams and hems, will project out onto the tent walls.  Were they to peel, they would be useless to spread tension.  Although there will be goop from transfer tape inside the lap-felled seams and folded hems.  With sil-coated woven fabric, I might run a line of sewing just inside the curved portion of the patches; but am reluctant to do that with DCF.  So the adhesive bonds must be very strong and durable.

    #3734640
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    In that video that Dave posted, they used double stick tape, then sewed.

    Which occurs to me, in that other thread that noticed most gear makers don’t post on BPL, I don’t think they mentioned Dave of Oware.  Or did they? : )

    #3735105
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Alas, did not find any new and better adhesives.  The Hysol U-09FL remains the champ.  That one, and some of the ones used by Steve Evans in the tests in his video linked above, are very pricey, so did not fork up for a 3M urethane adhesive.

    The Hysol did confirm the weakness of DCF on what appear to be weft threads.  Those threads can separate, and when enough force is used to pull bonded pieces apart, the mylar sandwich, which is very fragile, can rupture.

    But logically, the tie-out patches, if large enough to disperse forces, can be bonded with their warp threads perpendicular to the weft threads on the base fabric.  The Hysol bonds are very strong, and will rip the mylar sandwich right off the weft threads if enough force is applied.  So a large enough patch, with its warp threads running at right angles to the weft threads on the base fabric should deter this.

    I found the half oz/yd2 DCF a bit too much like tissue paper, but rummaged about and found a roll of some old light green Cuben weighing .65 oz that was much more opaque, and might work.  But think a smaller second patch, along the lines of Brook’s post on the thread that Stumphges linked, perhaps even diagonal to the warp and weft of the base fabric and first patch, might be strong enough for sewing on some tapes to attach to tie-outs.

    But if the DCF is to be used for tent doors, bonding to beak shaped DCF door panels will be necessary, not to mention zippers on the doors.  No surprise that Zpacks tried other methods for securing doors.  At some point, DCF reinforcements and/or tapes may simply become heavier than the weight savings from the DCF base fabric.

    Before going there, some more time will be spent with Porcher’s 29 gram paraglider fabric. It is 6.6 woven nylon with double ripstop squares and a PU coat, and may be more resistant to expansion and sag due to water absorption than silnylon.  It also might keep just enough bias stretch to tautly hold a tent framework in strong winds, and of course would be more friendly to sewing.  Or all this may be the stuff of dreams.  Have some additional paraglider fabric coming from one of Extrem Textil’s competitors in Germany.  The first to know will be you if the dreams come true.

    #3735197
    Monte Masterson
    BPL Member

    @septimius

    Locale: Changes Often

    Thanks for the advice guys. Unfortunately I dilly dallied around and didn’t order the camo DCF before Dutchware and RSBTR both ran out of it. Who knows when the camo will be back in stock. The only thing available now on either site seems to be the .51 oz. The 0.8 and 1.0 are also “Out of Stock”.

    #3735273
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Monte,

    There is some comfort in knowing that TarpTent uses the .51 oz DCF for the canopies on its tents (heavier 1 oz on the floors); such as the Notch Li.

    The green .6+ DCF that you advise is sold out is more opaque, and stronger of course.  But I think that if TarpTent has mastered joinery of the .51 oz DCF on tents, not just flat tarps, and there are a number of satisfied customers reporting on BPL, it is doable, especially for flat or slightly cat cut center seam tarp.

    With respect to the corner tie outs, Brook’s approach on the above linked thread looks good, especially if the base fabric and reinforcement patches are bonded at different angles as I mentioned above.

    The circular patches sold by Zpacks seem a bit heavy, but they could be used to cut patches to be applied at different angles.  I’ve no idea how strong the bonds would be, or how long they would last.  But was not satisfied with the strength of some transfer tape intended for DCF.  For myself, I would bond using Loctite Hysol mentioned above, even though the patch area would be stiffer than two layers of the .51 oz DCF.  But so would Zpacks’ patches.

    With my desire to construct a tent, however, there are a lot more seams involved, so I’d feel much more comfortable using a woven material.  But that does not apply to a basic tarp as you may have in mind.

    I recently bought a few yards of the .5 oz DCF in green to see how the current DCF performs, and have most of it left; and would be glad to send it to you if you PM me with a mailing address and cover the shipping expense.

    I wonder what TarpTent and others are doing to obtain DCF for their tents.

    #3735316
    Monte Masterson
    BPL Member

    @septimius

    Locale: Changes Often

    I appreciate the offer Sam, but I’m going to hold out for the camo .68 DCF. I’m committed to stealthy colors nowadays, to the point of being eccentric really.

    #3735400
    Dave @ Oware
    BPL Member

    @bivysack-com

    Locale: East Washington

    Here is some kevlar basting tape that may be of use on sewn seams.

    https://www.sailrite.com/Seamstick-1-2-Mylar-Kevlar-50-Yds

    Mylar repair tape may be of use when at worn tie out points where the dyneema is there but the mylar has holes.

    https://www.sailrite.com/Adhesive-Repair-Tape-Monofilm-Clear-2-x-10

    Haven’t tried either, tho do use seamstick basting tape without the kevlar and it works well on ultralight urethane coated nylon.

    #3735472
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Monte,

    If you do find the heavier DCF at some point, please note that I have not been able to secure strong bonds with any of the tapes intended for DCF.  So I would use the Hysol mentioned above. No matter how thinly applied, it does stiffen reinforcement patches, but they are on for good, and require no sewing, except where a tie-out tape is attached.  With application of alcohol to clean surfaces, and clamping, the bond will rip the mylar off the DCF before it fails.  Can’t vouch for durability over time, but it was the adhesive of choice on BPL for tarps when Cuben first became popular.  It is low viscosity, almost a liquid, so is easy the spread very thinly.

    #3735474
    Monte Masterson
    BPL Member

    @septimius

    Locale: Changes Often

    Thanks Dave and Sam, I now understand that an adhesive is in fact necessary for bonding DCF reinforcements. Any hope I had of just cutting and sticking on reinforcements has vanished. Of course it can’t be that easy.

    I’ll go with one of the adhesives recommended above. In the e-mail Joe Valesko sent me in reply to the “How did your DCF shelter age (and expire)?” thread, I wish he would have mentioned just exactly WHAT material he is using for tent reinforcements and WHAT adhesive is being utilized. I wouldn’t dare send another inquiry to Joe because I don’t want to become pesky, and besides, it might be a proprietary secret anyway. However I tend to think the reinforcements are the same as the patches ZPacks sells.

    (link I posted earlier in this thread) https://zpacks.com/products/5-25-x-13-inch-large-repair-patch-clear-white

    #3744978
    Craig Price
    BPL Member

    @skeets

    Locale: Australia

    Just readthis

    in older zpacks tents and fly’s, they seemed to have used the heavy black stick on patch material and also sold it. It was much heavier than the 1.1oz dyneema used in their groundsheets . They used this on the outside and a 1.6oz dyneema stick on the insde and the sewed the tieouts to this with asmall dyneema stick on in the inside stitching to seam seal.

    they dont sell this black stick on anymore and neither do they seem to use it on tents or flies. The latest tents and flies i have from zpacks use what appears to the same as the tent/ fly itself. Even for the camo dyneema when they sold that – i have two fly’s and plex in camo and the tieout reinforcements are also in camo,  it looks like these might be glued rather than stick on, and on the inside only. Also – they just used this before sewing on the tieouts – that would be only 2 layers for sewing it seems ( no pun intended), which is very light if so!  But their gear works and holds up (again no pun intended).  I have a quantity of dyneema that i am using to make gear from and i am using at least 3 layers for sewed tieouts and the seam (i also didnt use the dobule sided tape for joining and sewed with single sided to seal/strengthen, as where i use the gear it can get hot and  read that this is better than double sided tape if exposed to heat

    wrt the 0.67 camo dyneema, ive also read that its actually 0.51 oz deneema with a camo material bonded to it – so slightly heavier but same strength as the 0.51oz  material

    #3746014
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Monte,

    Both Dutchware and RBTR appear to have the .67 oz camo DCF back in stock.  Now you can stay home and do some MYOG while spring arrives!

     

    #3748192
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Regardless of the construction of tie-outs, there is a concern about tie-outs that are plonked in the middle of a tent wall, usually to open up the interior and tighten the wall.  This has frequently appeared on Zpacks tents, but on others as well.

    Reinforcements and tie-outs at seams appear to have a number of solutions, the best IMO being the one posted by Brook some time ago, and again in another thread on this page.  But tie-outs on the middle of unbroken walls is a different story.  Even if there is a small circular reinforcement under the tie-out, the amount of stress on the material may result in a short life.

    One could avoid these ‘patched on’ tie-outs altogether; but sometimes they may be indispensable, as on the Zpacks tents.  So far, larger reinforcement patches are the only way I’ve come up with to spread the forces on the wall, but please post if you have been confronted with this situation.  Thanks.

    #3749441
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    “So far, larger reinforcement patches are the only way I’ve come up with to spread the forces on the wall”  Please forgive me for bumping my own post, above; however some alternative solutions have come about.

    There may be another way, if the purpose is to stretch the surface of  an unseamed fabric on a partial bias under a flexed pole.  That would be by cutting pole sleeves on a full bias to give them maximum stretch, then sewing them onto the fabric surface using a zig-zag stretch.  This might create too much stress on the fabric from external poles; however, the poles are being attached to an inner tent, which will in turn have a fly stretched over the poles, so the stress on the pole sleeve at any one point on the inner canopy fabric would be spread, and the outer layer created by the outside fly would further limit stress on the inner canopy.

    Initially, the intention was to use pole clips to hold the poles in place;  but it seemed that if a pole sleeve could do the same job, with less weight than the clips, and with the stress dispersed along the length of the sleeve, there would be no need for the reinforcement patches that would need to go under each pole clip.  I’ve weighed a number of pole clips on the market, and even the lightest ones add considerable weight when they start adding up.  Whereas a pole sleeve can be much lighter.  Also, clips can subject carbon poles to wear, while pole sleeves do not.

    All the above theories will need to be tested by a building a full scale prototype and waiting for a good windstorm to see how the canopy holds up.  And if the inner fabric is densely woven nylon, to wait for a wind AND RAIN storm to see how it holds its shape.  A breathable polyester fabric with only a DWR coat would hold its shape; but the best and lightest inners I’ve found came from Extrem Textil and were nylon polyamide. A similarly light ripstop polyester from RBTR does not appear to be as strong, so perhaps some testing will resolve this.

    All of the above could be much more easily resolved simply by putting seams underneath the pole sleeves; but the seams would add weight and almost eliminate the bias stretch on the inner canopy, eliminating added inner space created by the partially bowed poles.  A lot of testing, but stretching fabric samples in plastic embroidery loops and exposing them to wet weather resolves most issues related to shape-holding.  Progress has been slow, though.

    #3749471
    matthew k
    Moderator

    @matthewkphx

    Regardless of the construction of tie-outs, there is a concern about tie-outs that are plonked in the middle of a tent wall, usually to open up the interior and tighten the wall.  This has frequently appeared on Zpacks tents, but on others as well.

    Hopefully this is not too much of a non-sequitor but I wonder what shape is best for a mid-panel tie-out? My first thought was to use a round patch of reinforcing material to avoid stress risers but I’m not sure that applies with fabric. Just curious. Please feel free to ignore if this is too much of a distraction from the main topic at hand.

    #3749569
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    “My first thought was to use a round patch of reinforcing material … ”

    That was my first thought also, in order to spread the force from the tie-out over a broader area.  But was not too keen on that, as ideally a tent can be designed so the guy-out connection can at least be located on a seam.  Would be uncomfortable with a guy-out pasted in the middle of a panel, even with a circular patch, and would not be surprised if a serious blow did damage to the tent.  Have noted that Kuiu has moved away from this on its dome tents.

    So felt something else was needed, such as a pole sleeve of sorts, and wanted to share this with others facing a similar question.  Thanks.

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