Best Insulation System for Cold Rainy Mountains

@justin_baker

I’m looking for 300wt fleece pants for that reason too. So far, I’ve only found one 300wt pant made by Cabelas.

There are a couple of 200wt makers. Really I’d like to find thermal pro hi loft.

I asked Melanzan if they would custom make a pair, but they said they don’t do that.

Fox Wear has a retro X type fleece, but I’m not sure how lofty it is.

I’m looking for 300wt fleece pants for that reason too.

More like overalls than true pants, but the older generation of ECWCS fleece may work…

Essentially 300 WT fleece IIRC. You typically want the long version in military layers such as fleece or the puffy pants. The regular length versions are sized for combat boots.

Eric k,

it has to be pretty cold and wet to wear the hi loft fleece under a rain shell … You generally only do so in camp

the best bet is to start off with the thin base + shell

if you find yourself soaked anyways then simply put on the hi loft fleece …. As long as you keep moving and its not very windy you probably dont need the shell

of course the fleece will get wet but then you simply wring it out at camp, put your shell over it and wear it to do camp chores … Your body heat and perhaps a hawt nalgene will dry out the inside so it feels merely damp

;)

Well the fleece doesn’t seem much thinner then the MH Thermostatic. After some loft degradation I wonder what the difference will be since it’s 40 gram insulation not the 60 gram primaloft Richard tested.

“it has to be pretty cold and wet to wear the hi loft fleece under a rain shell”

I was snowshoeing with a high loft fleece and windshirt in dry 16f weather and was plenty warm. I ran with the zipper open all the way and just zipped up for the rest stops. I have the MH Monkey Man grid high loft.  Amazing stuff.

From an old thread the clo of the Thermowrap is .48. Assuming that is new its twice as good as a Chameece + shell. But assuming 50% loss of clo the two would be equal after a few weeks of use. So my recent purchase of a MH Thermostatic seems less wise unless I’m willing to use it as aa sacrificial layer for only a few trips.

Richard am I missing anything?

Luke,

MB uses a proprietary continuous fiber dual denier insulation that does not degrade like Primaloft cut staple. You can normally get a year or two use (if you don’t stuff tightly which was the only test I did of this material) versus a few weeks for a 50% reduction (with tight stuff which is the only test I did of this material).

I haven’t tested the MH ThermostaticThermal.Q™ Elite synthetic insulation and I have no data from anyone else’s tests.

On that note, others have mentioned that Fullrange and Alpha don’t degrade like other synth insulations, and if I remember they were spawned from high loft fleece in the first place.

Is this lack of loft loss true – and if so is that beyond the 1-2 years you quote above for the MB stuff, Richard?

I understand that the face fabrics for fullrange/alpha don’t allow for efficient drying when compared to fleece, but I wonder if faster drying/higher CFM face fabrics might mitigate this? Thin polyester or even a mesh inner, for instance…though I suppose the durability might suffer, or that a tighter knit is needed to contain the insulation?

I’ve thought of sandwiching climashield or alpha between layers of mesh or tulle as an lighter/more packable alternative to high loft fleece – does this strike anyone as workable? Would one of these (alpha or climashield) ultimately win out for warmth/weight/packability in cold and wet situations over high loft fleece?

Granted the weight/bulk penalty is not all that much for high loft fleece vs synth – but a situation like Luke’s, or when backpack hunting in similar conditions, seems like one where ounce and cubic inch counting is more warranted than others, particularly if you’re less likely to be wearing this stuff on the move under all but the gnarliest conditions.

I would go with R1 style ECWCS style long johns and then jump to insulated/ quilted ones like Grandpa wore fishing and hunting. LL Bean makes Primaloft long johns at $99 a pair.

A fleece and windshirt is more flexible than an alpha jacket IMO

the main advantage of synth jackets over fleece (other than a bit warmer when new) is that you dont need to deal with “faff”

that is take off the windshirt, put on the fleece, put back on the windshirt …  a chore at belays for climbers

For normal hikers its not a big deal

;)

Eric C,

Thanks for that bit of advice. Makes sense: Only put the WPB hard shell on when I’m at base camp or in my case, at the end of the hike because I tend to cool off quickly when I start to slow down from my pace.

Eric

or when its really windy and near freezing

basically theres 2 ways to get wet … from the inside and the outside …

its always a balance between the two

when one starts moving one shouldnt wear too much under the shell as youll just end up sweating anyways if yr moving hard

however sooner or latter youll get quite damp from either internal moisture or water ingress … and in constant non stop rain sooner or later one or the other will get you

once you get soaked all that bull about keeping everything dry goes out the window

at that point because water conducts away your body heat several times faster than air … ive had folks under a rain shell with their base layers who got quite cold even when moving

thats when you want the fleece … as with the thinnest base layers the fleece with raise yr body temps and the thinnest base layers will start drying off with enough movement

whether you put keep on yr rain jacket or not at that point is a matter of how warm you feel

one doesnt want to OVERHEAT though …

alternatively one can just wear the thermal pro hiloft and not use a rain shell …. unless its very cold and windy the body heat will generally push the moisture out …

however this may not work for everyone … as i indicated earlier women may need to wear their fleece under their rain shell much more often as they generally feel colder

however you should never take the word of someone on an intrawebz forums about it …

the ONLY way to get beyond BPL “theorizing” is to go out and walk in the heaviest coldest rain you can find, even if its just around town … any rain storm is a gear and technique testing opportunity, the worst the conditions the better

one will eventually find out what does and doesnt work for em

;)

@Richard

where do you find that Exeloft is in fact continuous ? I know they use two deniers for the fibers but that doesn’t mean it is automatically continuous. Not that I would mind since I have a Thermawrap since a very long time.

Woubier,

I opened one up.

Interesting. So, in fact, when thinking Climashield-jackets were needed because of the question for the need of jackets with continuous fiberfill, we forgot they already existed and for a long time.

@Richard

have you ever cut open something with a short staple fill like Primaloft ? Because several searches showed results that listed Exeloft as a short fiber insulation. I know these use a binder and maybe that makes short fiber insulations resemble insulations with continuous fibers ?

Eric C,

An interesting idea, next time I go hiking and now I stand of chance of running into rain, I’ll wear my baselayer and hi loft fleece and see what happens. Typically if there is wind I will wear the hard shell because the wind gets me cold easily. I have found as a pretty good set of conditions for me in good weather is just wearing my Rab Vapour Rise Lite jacket over the technical tee at around 46 degrees with windstopper gloves and a good beanie caps keeps my very warm as I work hard. I was doing the Tennessee Valley Trail up to where it meets the Coast trail here in the SF Bay Area and by the time I got the to top, I had to take the Rab light softshell off as it had gotten into the mid 50’s and I was just starting to get toasty and did not wear it at all on the way back to the car as the sun was starting to break out from behind the coastal fog.

somewhere I saw MB listing as a combination of short and long fibers, no mention of continuous, but maybe that is what “continuous” fiber is??!!

Woubeir,

Yes, I have also cut open a garment to inspect a short staple fiber insulation like Primaloft One (Gold).

The 2012 version of Exceloft insulation I looked at appeared to be SUBSTANTIALLY continuous single filaments, of two diameters, with a 3D heat crimp (aka binder). In contrast, Primaloft One (aka Gold) fibers are a staple fibers of MUCH shorter length; they are similar to down fiber cluster filament lengths.

Ah, interesting. Very interesting, indeed.

James, you seem to be advocating the use of high-loft fleece as static insulation for the given conditions. Is my understanding correct? I think the PCU system also presents the level 3 high-loft fleece in such a way given that the level 7 insulated layer is meant more for extreme cold.

With respect to high-loft fleece, the Polartec High Loft pieces such as the Patagonia R2 or Mountain Hardwear High Loft jacket, fit the bill. These are similar to the PCU level 3 layer. How does Polartec Alpha Direct compare to Polartec High Loft? Is Alpha Direct 120 equivalent to High Loft in terms of warmth? Alpha Direct with its lower weight is much more appealing for ligtweight backpacking, hence my question.

I’d highly recommend a synthetic insulated jacket in some form of ClimaShield. Failing that brand then try for the most resilient iteration of PrimaLoft (Gold, etc.)

Synthetic insulation in a shell will always be warmer per weight than fleece.

Eric B, I have the Nuclei FL which has Climashield Apex. I’m wondering if a high-loft fleece is a viable alternative to a synthetic puffy for static insulation. Or perhaps if it can be combined with a down vest to provide enough static insulation for three season conditions. Not trying to put much emphasis on the warmth to weight ratio here.

I’m also intrigued by the PCU system as it looks like the level 3 high-loft fleece is the only good option to keep warm in non-wintry conditions. It would be great if any PCU users could chime in about this. I’d like to understand how the layering works for static warmth outside of winter.

Kris,

I think for static conditions you would want a synthetic puffy as they are warmer than the thickest fleece. I’ve used my old Thermolite jacket and pants in a tree stand in 12 F. weather sitting there for 4 hours and was fine. (Heavy polyester base layer and Gore-Tex pants and parka, synthetic sweater.

BTW, I saw my FIRST comment on this thread was made in 2016! Things haven’t changed much since then.