Best Insulation System for Cold Rainy Mountains

[Jörgen Johansson]

For cold and wet conditions, which I see quite a bit of, I use wool as base layer and fleece as mid layer for my torso. Wind shirt or rain jacket. For insulation and warmth I find high loft synthetic hoodies hard to beat. Unfortunately there are not many in the 8-12 oz range around, since BPL quit making the Cocoon. The last couple of years I have used as Climashield hoody (290 grams/10,5 oz) from the European cottage manufacturer As Tucas. It has worked well both in Lapland and Alaska.

[Tipi Walter]

Regarding Dale Wambaugh’s pic of “One Word: Pockets”—

To be precise, this would be the correct picture—

Mr McGuire counseling Ben.  Your pic shows Ben in his room with his Dad I think.

[James holden]

the problem with synth poofayz i find

• the extra nylon inner layer slows the drying and feels worse against the skin, base layer when absolutely soaked … soak a synth poofay in the tub, wring it out (which will degrade the insulation), and then put it on and youll see what i mean
• when its raining during the day and then the temps drop below freezing at night, your soaked synth poofay can freeze solid … i had a atom lt turn into a nice dead bird ice sculpture, youll either need to unthaw it or ripe those delicate shell apart
• under a rain jacket a fleece is better due to its fuzzy nature
• synth degrades by 30-40%+ in the first few months of actual constant use … which means dont wear it in the city every day … fleece you can abuse and itll laugh right back at you

synthetic poofayz are useful … but like cap 4 they are perhaps best in damp or somewhat wet conditions … not in constantly soaking all day rain ones, unless you treat it like down

they are great however for keeping moisture out of your down bag with the proper techniques

;)

[Ken Larson]

Jorgan ……..Have you looked at the Patagonia Men’s Nano Puff Pullover @ 9.2oz. with PrimaLoft® ONE (60-g) as a final outer layer?  I use the same layering you do ” I use wool as base layer and fleece as mid layer for my torso. Wind shirt or rain jacket. For insulation and warmth I find high loft synthetic hoodies hard to beat.” here in Michigan with a Patagonia Men’s Nano Puff Pullover when it get miserably cold and wet over the hooie as a todays’s weather condition (snow/sleet/rain; temp 30F/1C -32F/0C). Never had a issue with this layering set up.

 

[Dale Wambaugh]

60g jackets don’t deliver. They are great under just the right conditions, but they are woven too tight for active use and not warm enough at rest.

If you a carrying a windshirt and fleece, you can wear them in any combination and a 60g jacket is just duplication at the same temperature range. I think 100g is the way to go and if you are using a fleece and wind shell, a 100g vest like the Patagona Micro Puff will cover most 3 season conditions.

[Luke Schmidt]

A midweight capilene shirt just arrived in the mail, I wore it around the house for a while. Main first impression is that its a lot thinner then I expected.

My initial thought is that the thing feels light and breathable enough to use a my baselayer (rather the layer over my other shirt I used). So I’ve gained a base layer that is probably better then the cheapo things I’ve been wearing but the search for actual insulation continuous. Dale I hear everything you are saying about fleece and you are probably right. If I think my jacket will be for camp mostly I’m going synthetic puffy, just because its better then down and I have little space in my huge load for an evening only layer. If I think it will be cold enough to hike in it I’ll bring a fleece and maybe a vest for in camp insulation.

Plan right now its to scour ebay for deals on all of the above and try them out over the summer. Who knows might be my next project to try a bunch of insulation out.

[Paul S.]

Kris,

What pants / lower half setup do you use for cold, wet conditions?

[Kris]

Paul, that depends on how cold and how wet.  I’ll describe what we do generally and hopefully that will cover what you were curious about specifically.

We need to be able to move quickly and with approximately 80 lbs of gear (most of which is unrelated to hiking).  Moving like that generates a lot of heat.  Wearing too much clothing makes you overheat which saps your energy and could possibly even make you a heat casualty.  We’re trained to start movement wearing only as much clothing as necessary to remain “comfortably cold” while at rest, and then adjust layers as necessary when in motion.  Depending on the weather and activity level, that could mean adding a layer but usually means removing one or two.  For example, one morning the thermometer in our tent said -20F but I couldn’t dress for that temp because we were skinning with Ahkios (cross-country skiing up a mountain while pulling 100 lbs of gear in a sled) which generates a ton of heat.  So I dressed just warmly enough to stay safe while breaking camp.  I remember being pretty cold until we started our long-range movement.  I imagine this is intuitive and probably no different than how you would hike if you also needed to carry that much gear.

The extent to which we try and stay dry is heavily influenced by the temperature.  The Army makes charts for everything and there is probably some risk-analysis matrix that lists the temperature at which a soldier should wear waterproof clothing.  But in practice, we just do what we feel is necessary to stay safe.  Acclimation has a profound effect on your comfort zone.  For example, participating in Winter Environmental Training with the Norwegian military while coming from a rotation in Iraq would mean that a soldier had physiological adaptations for desert temperatures and would need to be more cautious about Norway’s climate than would a soldier coming from Ft. Wainwright in Alaska.  So we just do what we think we are capable of.

Generally, we don’t wear wet-weather gear when it’s raining because if it’s warm enough to rain then the temperature isn’t so cold that we need to dress differently for it.  Obviously, the closer to freezing it is (and Ft. Bragg does get a lot of ice storms in the winter), the less true that is.  But for the majority of temperatures at which it rains, we ignore it.

Wet-weather gear is actually worn more often when it’s not wet out.  Sub-freezing temps do make wet clothing dangerous so we are cautious to stay dry when it’s that cold out.  That means that Gore-Tex clothing is often used when moving in the snow.

I’m guessing that when you asked about “cold, wet conditions” you were thinking about the rain and  temperatures above freezing.  In that case, I would probably only have PCU Level 1 pants (silkweight baselayer) under what you could think of as hiking pants.  I find the Level 2 pants (grid-fleece midlayer) too warm to wear while moving in temperatures above 30F.  I don’t use Level 2 pants until the temp drops into the 20s.  I can’t remember ever wearing Level 6 pants (Gore-Tex wet-weather pants) when it was raining.

Hope this is what you were after.

Kris

[Paul S.]

Thanks Kris.  I too find WP gear too hot and clammy when on the move, so a fleece is much more comfortable to wear when it’s raining and too warm for a shell (i.e. most of the time).  Legs I wasn’t too sure about since wet pants stuck to your thighs is quite uncomfortable but fleece leggings would be overkill.  Soft shell pants with thicker fabric than a thin nylon slow the wet out but they dry slower once wet but that’s what I’ve been using for nearly all my hiking.

A few ideas come to mind:

• Wear light grid fleece pants/tights with shorts for improved breathability. But you lose wind and abrasion resistance
• Wear 3/4 silk or light weight leggings (full length are too hot) under soft shell pants. You still get wet out but the thigh insulation will keep things more comfortable
• Rain kilt or pants.  Possibly too hot, extra weight carried.

I’ll probably stick with hiking in a fleece pullover and soft shell pants and if things get real nasty out put on a poncho which covers my upper legs. Wind will get rain underneath a bit but only my knees really get wet under the poncho. For off trail or steep inclines where a poncho isn’t practical or safe I’ll consider the 3/4 leggings approach.

 

One more question: you said no one uses the wind shirt; does that also include the soft shell layers?

[George H]

From my experience, base layer and shell needs most of the attention. The stuff in between may be fun to geek out over, but a lot of different items do the job to equal satisfaction, with few significant gains.

I like to think of ‘on the move layers’ and ‘camp layers’. There will be overlaps to keep it light, but a few things are specific to each. I always have a dry base layer and an insulated puffy in the pack, not to be worn in wet conditions on the move. Wet conditions at camp are far easier to control.

A lot of folks talk about the discomfort of hiking with a wet base layer, and I believe they mean from outside infiltration, not sweat. In ‘cold rainy mountains’ this can be the beginning to a life threatening epic. When the base layer is soaked, some aspect in one’s setup has failed, badly. Or a completely unforeseen situation arose. Again, experience, planning, research could have limited this scenario.

The definition of staying dry on the trail to me is keeping outside moisture away from upper body layers and everything in the pack. Legs, feet are not too important at the seasons and elevations I typically travel: Western US mountains, summer and shoulder seasons.

Dialing in a working base layer in rainy weather has a lot to do with limiting perspiration. The shell, almost no matter what technology, will trap moisture. Changing layers in driving rain is sketchy. So, a fair amount of foresight and awareness is needed to get going correctly.

Choosing a shell is affected by one’s activity in the mountains. Simple advanced hiking, like the Winds High Route, can be done with a poncho and a light WP jacket with a large margin of safety and comfort. Add an ascent of a remote class 5 wall, or a packraft run along the way, and the question of layers become complex and very important.

But it is also assumed the adventurer choosing these advanced activities can judge conditions accurately, and in most cases avoid being stuck on pitch 7 in a downpour, or flip his boat and loose everything. Or only do this once, and hopefully live to use his newfound experience during a long life of safe trips.

 

[Dale Wambaugh]

Well said, George!

[Kris]

Paul,

Actually, the soft shell jacket (Level 5) is really popular but not for what you would think of as hiking – maybe call it “running around town.”  I wore my PCU Block 1 jacket, made by Patagonia, whenever I was walking around the firebase while wintering in Kabul.  But I don’t remember putting it on while I was outside the wire.  There isn’t anything that a softshell does that a hardshell doesn’t do better.  Of course, since that includes trapping heat, a softshell’s breathability should make it a good choice under certain conditions.  However, in practice, it just hasn’t worked out like that.  I’m guessing that the temp range where a softshell is comfortable but a hardshell is too hot is a very narrow one.  I recently got a new Level 5 jacket, made by Beyond, that is quite different than the Patagonia.  The Beyond feels like neoprene and it is probably too heavy to be of interest here but my initial impression is very favorable and I could see using it instead of a hardshell in the mountains.

Level 5 does include pants and it sounds like that might be similar to what you are using.  However, I’ve never seen anyone use them.  Unlike the windshirt, which was tried and found too limited, I’m not aware of anyone even trying the softshell pants.  Maybe all the crap we carry keeps us so warm that we don’t need the extra insulation?

Something to keep in mind is that we might not be as dialed in regarding hiking in the rain as we are with operating in desert plains or mountain ridges.  I don’t think this is the case because when we’re not deployed, we train in all environments.  And First Special Forces Group is in Tacoma and would be training daily in the same conditions that you’re hiking in.  However, it is certainly true that most of the time most of Special Forces is not in the rain.  That’s why I read these forums – to see if you guys have figured out things that we haven’t.

[Paul S.]

Soft shell jackets typically considered to be best around town so the parallel is not surprising.  I use an OR Ferrosi jacket for winter when I need some snow and wind protection but only when I expect to leave it on at all times. It’s just too heavy to use as a alternative wind shirt if you don’t wear it most of the time.

My soft shell pants aren’t lined with any fleece or pile, they’re just heavier/tougher, stretchier and more breathable than your typical nylon hiking pants since they’re made for rock climbing. Stretch woven fabrics are much heavier but they breathe so well and the improved mobility makes them better for pants than nylon in my experience.  Neither is great in rain.

[James holden]

soaked layers in all day freezing rain is not uncommon up here in the winter rains …

basically your looking at 20-50mm+ every day for several days in a row with no let up … everything is a mud pit

remember that if your warm body vapour is hitting a shell which is cooled by ~33F rain, thats instant condensation on the inside of your shell …

add in the eventual DWR failure, and even the slightest mistake can leave you soaked (one zipper opened up slightly more, hood that isnt perfectly tightened, slip on crossing the higher fast creeks that time of the year)

one should be prepared to be quite damp, and you need to know what to do when yr soaked to the bone

keeping dry takes quite a bit of skill and luck in those conditions

while a good shell helps … all shells will eventually fail one way or another, whether through a mistake or the wearing out of DWR … or an outright leaking failure

and when that happens you want a FLEECE …

skurka has written on it fairly extensively on DWR failures and fleece …

as to the lower legs …

light fleece pants work fine … but you want em FLUFFY and FUZZY … powerstretch or micro/100 weight with wind pants (take em off if not raining)

i dont recommend light grid fleece pants in the soaking rain especially if you dont have rain pants for the same reason as the cap4 … the density and snugness when they are soaked clings em to your legs and guarantees that your skin will feel cold and wet

while folks such as special forces, top level climbers, ultramarathon runners, etc … are no doubt at the top of their game and pushing the limits

im not quite certain if their systems are exactly applicable to quite a few of us who arent in their physical prime, lack the mental fortitude and training, carry much less weight and go much less hard …

the other thing is that what works for say a man, may not work for women simply because of the metabolic differences

my favorite climbing partner for example can hike up hill in the rain in a thermal pro fleece and paclite hardshell … and not even sweat

however the slightest breeze and shes instantly shivering

;)

[Dale Wambaugh]

I agree on the “running around town” on soft shells. They look great and work for known conditions of short duration, like an an afternoon of downhill skiing, walking the dog, etc. I don’t find them any warmer than a thin fleece or thick base layer with a wind shell. I have a newer OR Mithril hoody that has first place in the hallway coat closet if I’m headed out for cool raining urban errands and short trips. The horsepower to weight ratio and versatility just isn’t there for a part of a good hiking layering system. They are abrasion resistant and good if you like hugging granite walls.

On the other hand, I am finding light stretchy soft shells like the First Ascent Sandstone to be very usable, giving all the attributes of a highly breathable wind shell (but unfortunately at 3 times the weight). I have been using one for biking and plan to take one on a long trip to Scandinavia and the UK.

[Luke Schmidt]

Found a Montbell Chameece Fleece cheap on eBay. Supposedly its only 8.8 oz which is right up there with the lighter synthetic puffies. I’ll be giving it a try and comparing it to a MH Thermostatic. I’ll try that out and compare it to a synthetic jacket.

[Richard Nisley]

 

Advice – to be ignored

and

Corroboration – 8.8oz is great. Lighter is ALWAYS better.

 

[Mike M]

a lightweight fleece like the Chameece is a great layer in the wet/cold on the move, but not not as warm as your “typical” 60 gram syn layer imo- light fleece on the move, add the light syn at camp

[David Chenault]

You need a bigger pack Luke. 80-90 liters with a circumference in the mid to upper 40s is not overkill.

[Luke Schmidt]

Richard I had not seen that particular thread, interesting chart. Looks like the chameece may not be my choice (or at least my only choice) on a lot of trips. But since it was $30 its not a big deal. I can use it as part of a layering system and for warmer weather trips to save wear and tear on my puffy.

Dave a bigger pack similar to the 100 liter monster on your blog is in the works. I will be able to carry a bunch of insulation if I need to but I’m trying to keep things as simple as possible. This year’s plans will involve some bushwacking so a shorter less bulky pack will be nice (side note I’m going to experiment with a wider, deeper bottom on the back. That way I can drop my heavier rafting gear a bit lower so the pack will be more stable while crawling through dead fall).

Mike I’m of the opinion that a puffy is normally more efficient as well. Aside from Richard’s calculations I know from personal experience that my 13 oz Nano Puff is way warmer then any fleece I’ve used. That has 60 gram insulation. But my vest with 40 gram insulation has degraded to the point where I really wonder if its any better then 100 wt. fleece. That is what I’m interested to compare. I really don’t see myself buying another 13-16oz synthetic puffy, unless its cheap. If I need that much insulation I think I’d go with some combination of fleece and down. Might be slightly heavier but more flexible and longer lasting.

[Edward Barton]

What are people liking for footwear for cold/wet?

I’ve been looking for a new fast drying but reasonably durable trail runner, with mesh fine enough to keep grit out, and good grip.

I looked at the Altra Superior 2.0’s, and they seem excellent for all of this except the durability. They have velcro built into the exterior heel, and it makes me wonder whether I could get away with wearing short dirty girl-style gaiters to keep mud out. I found sizing up I was able to get a reasonable fit with both just liners and .5mm neoprene socks layered over top. I wonder if perhaps the wider toe box lends itself to a bit more flexibility in terms of layering, though I only tried them on. The reports on durability are not great though.

[Justin Baker]

I flipped a packraft on the Eel river earlier this week. I think the air temp was around 55 with shade. I was wearing a 300 weight polartec thermal pro hoody by melanzana that weighs 13 ounces in medium. I didn’t even get cold. Just kept paddling and lazily floating. Most of the water dripped down to my waist. I get cold very easily, especially when I’m sitting around and inactive, so I thought I was going to freeze. I was totally fine. I’m a firm believer in high loft fleece now. I want some pants too.

[David Chenault]

Unless Altra has changed their rubber significantly in the 2.0 shoes it comes up very, very short w/r/t grip on wet rocks.  Unfortunate, as the fit is so nice.

LaSportiva shoes continue to be my go-to for floating, grip on and off the water continues to be best in class.  Some of their newer shoes even fit the wide footed decently.

[James holden]

Fluffy like a bunny, fuzzy like a bear

ive been in freezing rain storms in nothing but my thermal pro hiloft mec fleece and never felt more that a bit damp

as to footweat it all depends

in warmer non-constant rain mesh runners work fine as you may be able to dry things out

however in constant non stop freezing rain for days you meah runners wont dry out … Period

and every step you take in slush or puddles will pump cold water right into your shoe and chill your foot

the best solution IMO is goretex socks with a very thin synthetic sock under …. at night simply put the liner sock in yr chest (it should be damp at most) and hang the goretex sock inside out

this is really the only way to keep your feet dry over several days of rain

you can also use WPB shoes … Your feet will eventually get damp to wet, but theyll be warm … The wpb keeps the freezing water from pumping in and out with every step …

With non lined mesh shoes your best bet is fuzzy fleece socks … Theyll dry quickly at night and the fuzzyness will minimize the skin contact

;)

 

[Eric K]

Eric,

This was an informative read for me, thanks for posting it as part of the overall thread. I’ve always wondered why my midlayer/next to skin grid fleece pieces were so snug fitting. I mean, I understand that because they are next to skin/baselayers, that would be how grid fleeces would be done. Now that I’ve read this, I’ll make sure NOT to be wearing them when going into any sort of high precipitation/wet environment (or even rainy environment) at all and just stick to my s/s technical tees and my high lofting thermal pro pieces (I have a Monkey Man and Millet Xloft) under the hardshell.

Eric

[Author]

Posts