Best Insulation System for Cold Rainy Mountains

[Luke Schmidt]

I’m interested in picking folks brains for an insulation idea. I would like to update my insulation for packrafting and hiking in the northern US Rockies and in Canada. I’m already using a down sleeping quilt so I’m interested in something other then just a down jacket.

Generally when I’m packrafting in the northern Rockies (including Canada), I’ve typically worn a wool t-shirt, and long sleeve shirt. Those are my hiking clothes and I basically wear them all the time. Those won’t change much.

My insulation is where things get interesting. I’m “weighing” options for what would be the best 8-12oz worth of insulation. Here are the ideas

1. Minimalist – UL Thermowrap from Montbell. This would be the minimum I’d consider safe for packrafting/hiking in Canada or Montana in bad weather. Very light but of course not super flexible.
2. Down/Wool Combo – I was thinking about the idea of using a light but semi warm baselayer (in addition to my regular shirt) combined with some down. There are lots of options but basically I was thinking of about 6oz worth of baselayer (Montbell Zeo Line etc) combined with about a 6 oz down vest or jacket. The down of course would be need to be babied in bad weather but the extra base layer would be flexible. I could wear it packrafting or under my rain coat in rainy weather. I’d be unlikely to wear a U.L. Thermowrap hiking unless it was really bad weather.
3. Heaviest (and bulkiest) – Fleece/Down I could use a 8.8 oz Montbell Chameece Fleece combine with a really light Borah Gear vest or something similar. The fleece would of course be something I could also wear in cold rainy weather.

Thoughts? I’ll be out in some rainy weather and even in dry weather I packraft so water is always a factor.

 

[Lester Moore]

An 8 or 9 ounce fleece jacket is mighty versatile and bombproof in all kinds of weather. Combining a light fleece layer and an UL down vest or jacket would be a pretty flexible insulation strategy (assuming you have a rain jacket to go over everything). This combo worked well for years for me in the Colorado and Wyoming Rockies, where extended rainy weather is usually not super cold, and the coldest nights are usually clear.

[Luke Schmidt]

Lester I totally agree, fleece is great. But I’d rather not carry it if I could get away without it. I’m looking at 8.5-10 pounds of hiking gear which isn’t bad but then I add 13 pounds of packrafting so I want to eliminate ANY weight I can get away with.

[Hoosier T]

An Arcteryx Atom lt hoody is right at 12oz but super flexible with a good DWR. Personally, I find my Patagonia Thermal weight (previously cap 4) hoody so versatile that I can easily say it’s my favorite layer. Throw on a wind shirt or rain shell, depending on conditions/temp, and it’s incredibly warm but breathable. I actually wear the hood too. It’s quite comfy. My $.02…

[Luke Schmidt]

Hoosier tell me more about that capilene. I’m interested in how cold I could get away with just that. I’m thinking maybe that combined with a down vest or jacket might be the way to go.

[James holden]

luke …

if your fleece can fit over your light down vest/jacket without too much compresion … you can actually dry out damp (not wet) down that way and minimize the moisture

for fleece … the fuzzier the better … thermal pro is the best

you should be able fit the down over your fleece as well for flexibility

 

if its not absolutely raining all the time, use a down + synth combo … synth gets used for stops or if its really cold when yr moving slowly … the down only comes out in camp and goes UNDER the synth … just like an overbag concept, again you can dry out damp down this way

and if yr wet the thinnest synthetic base layers are much better than wool, you can dry em off just by wringing em out and walking around with body heat (once it stops raining)

;)

[Hoosier T]

Well, I won’t take all the credit. I have continuously read on here that it is like the magic material and I agree. Now, it’s quite thin, so when you first pick it up you’ll think there’s no way it will keep you warm. It will…Of course the benefit to it is that it wicks and breathes extremely well but that means that in colder or windy conditions, you will positively need a rain or wind shell over it. Nonetheless, the material is thin with thick bands of piled fleece that trap warm air and it works. The best part is that my Medium hoody weighs 7.2oz on my scale so it’s light. Here is a pic of the material I found from the Google Webs so you can see what it’s like.

Patty Thermal Weight

 

 

[Hoosier T]

Two weeks ago I woke up to pouring rain on the morning of my hike out. I put on my t shirt, the Patagonia fleece, and my rain shell. It was windy and 30 degrees F and I was sweating to death. With proper layering, it is extremely versatile. I realize that sweating isn’t ideal, but I’m trying to give you an idea of what temp I was sweating at with a rain shell and a t shirt along with the patty fleece.

[Luke Schmidt]

Hum sounds good. I’ll be thinking on it but I think that and a 4.2 oz Luke’s Ultralight down vest might be a good system. Basically the same weight as the Thermowrap and probably warmer.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

In these conditions UL sometimes has to take a back seat to US (Ultra Safe).

Generally I go for fleece for mid layer insulation but if it looks like I may transition well into sub-freezing conditions I will opt instead for synthetic filled clothing like my Thermolite Micro jacket and pants mid layer insulation.

For my base layer I like polyester long johns – Cabela’s is my preference for quality and durability.

[Diane Pinkers]

For hiking in the winter, I switched from wool base layers to the Capilene 4 for my baselayer for anything under 50 F.  With the wool, I was getting cool from sweat and staying that way a long time in wet cool conditions.  The Capilene 4 + wind shirt is a surprisingly good combination for being on the move, and is usually all I need for the 40’s F.  On occasion, I need just a little bit more, in which case I layer a vest made from a Melanzana fleece crew-neck pull-over–cut off the sleeves, insert full zipper.  If truly rainy, the capilene under a shell moves moisture way better than the wool layers.

[David Chenault]

For packrafting I like two separate insulation pieces, you have the option of boating in one and keeping the other dry, or boating in both if it’s cold.  One is usually fleece, the other synthetic fill.  Often one is a vest.  At least one, and ideally both, should have hoods.

Even for summer I don’t think 12 oz will get you there.

[Luke Schmidt]

Thanks Dave, I will be carrying a dry suit so that helps some. If I didn’t do that I definitely be carrying more insulation.

12 oz is sort of arbitrary but mostly I’m trying to figure out if 12 oz of down/fleece is better then 12 oz of synthetic.

[Mike W]

Years ago I tried to replace my fleece layer with a Montbell Thermawrap and very quickly switched back to fleece.  The Thermawrap is not very warm, hard to wear when active (doesn’t breath) and left me longing for my incredibly versatile fleece.  I’m back to carrying a 9 oz fleece and a down jacket.  I also tried cutting weight by using a down vest but I was cold without the sleeves.

[Brad Rogers]

Does anyone know where to get a decently priced Polartec Thermal Pro vest?

[Anonymous]

My thoughts are similar to Dave’s.  I would just add that a Cap 4 type or fishnet baselayer is more ideal for cold, wet weather or conditions.  They do make wool fishnets, which i think are the best of both worlds in that it doesn’t stink, but the greater/longer water retention is not much of an issue. To help absorb potential water from the outside, a very light, wicking synthetic over the top would help–something like OR Echo ls top.

A project i will be working on, after i finish my framed pack, is taking some very bulky yarn (primarily acrylic and wool blend), and fusing (the iron on polyamide stuff) it onto some non DWR and very breathable 1.1 ounce nylon, creating a very light combo of fishnet like and synthetic top as mentioned above.  Seems like it would be perfect for the conditions you describe.

[James holden]

the T2 and the old cap4 arent the best for cold always wet conditions …. they simply arent fuzzy enough (it aint the spandex content because the new T2s dont have any)

the grid fleeces are better for wicking when active but they do that partially by being fairly thin and having the material fairly close to the skin … but that also means it clings when its totally soaked

the fluffy and fuzzay fleeces are much better in sustained wet conditions because the only thing touching the skin/base is some fuzziness, most of the moisture is held decently away

T2/cap4 are great for wicking away moisture and they dry fairly quickly when damp … however when it soaking wet in 100% humidity constant rain cold environments, its simply overwhelmed

;)

[Brandon Richards]

This is an interesting topic, particularly because I am planning a trip outside of Telluride in July which I suspect will be exactly the conditions described here, although I’m not pack rafting.

Anyhow, I hope you don’t mind me asking a couple related questions. This Patagonia Capilene piece interests me. During the day while on the move I am certain that alone would suffice. But at night it drops well into the 30s, even colder here I will be. My biggest concern is simply staying warm while anticipating the inevitable wetness.

I have had my eye on a couple of these puff jackets with the water proofing and all, but they are all fairly heavy to just be in my pack most of the time. I wouldn’t mind the weight if I didn’t also need to carry something for potentially very heavy rain. A lot of these down jackets say they are water proof, but having never owned one I am concerned simply about whether or not a jacket like that can serve as a rain protection AND as insulation capable of keeping me warm into the the freezing or near freezing temps.

Like the OP the goal hear is simply to carry as little as possible. My usual approach to insulation (mostly for skiing) is to focus on the under layers and wear a soft shell. But I’m not sure that will cut it in this situation.

So I guess the question is, are these puff jackets really as durable, warm and versatile as the manufacturers say? Would a decent hooded down jacket alone be enough? Should I be looking at a heavier less packable, but better in the rain, synthetic hooded jacket? Or do you think I should stick to an insulated layer and bring my 8oz rain jacket to cover up if it starts pouring? From the gear that Im seeing it looks like the weight will range from a minimum of 8-ish oz (like that lukes jacket) to ~20oz including my rain jacket.

 

[Anonymous]

Are you using the regular fleece as both a baselayer and mid layer?  In any case, the reason why the Cap 4 stuff is so good, is because it’s mostly air space and very little material touching the skin.  That’s the point (similar reasoning behind fishnet basleayers too), and even regular fleece has much more material directly contacting the skin. That material is much, much more conductive than air, especially when wet.

If i had to choose between putting on a soaked Cap 4 type fleece or fishet, and a soaked regular fleece directly on the skin, i would choose one of the former every time.  I would say that the regular fleece is better as a midlayer though, but i was more talking about baselayers than mid layers all in all.

[Hoosier T]

Unless you buy an insulated rain jacket, none of these options are suitable for rain and therefore you know you HAVE to carry a rain jacket. With that requirement out of the way, let’s break this down. The Capilene piece is so versatile because it breathes and has a long zipper to vent. With that, you should never have to take it off if the temps are as you say they are. So, why would the weight of that fleece be factored at all if it’s always worn while hiking and never carried? If you’re cold with it on, then you either need a rain or wind shell over it. I take on the tiny weight penalty (~3.5 oz) and carry a wind shell (houdini) in addition to my rain shell. The capilene will likely not keep you warm alone in these temps, especially with wind so my wind shell would get worn over it most of the time and if I happen to heat up and take it off, I’m only carrying the 3.5 oz in my pack.

Okay, with all of that said, you needn’t factor the fleece into your carry weight so this leaves some head room for a puffy. I use a Montbell UL down jacket and yes, if used properly I.E. carried almost always and only worn in camp, then it only adds 8 oz to your pack for an incredible warmth to weight ratio. Can you see what I’m getting at here? Trust me, if it’s below 50 degrees, you can wear the capilene and not overheat so long as you understand how to vent in stages to prevent sweat. My order would look like this. Coldest when I start hiking so capilene zipped to my neck and wind shell over it zipped to where it need to be for me to feel warm. If I start getting hot, zip down the wind shell until I’m no longer hot. Still hot? Unzip the capilene all the way and possibly pull up both sleeves to my forearms. Still hot? Take off the wind shell and pull the sleeves back down on the Cap and zip it back up. Still hot? Unzip the Cap and pull the sleeves up again. Last stage is to take off the cap and hike in a t shirt but if it’s below 50, the Cap breathes so well that I NEVER have to do this. I hope you can understand and visualize how my vent stages work as they’re pretty universal in this community and I learned them myself by reading numerous thread here. Once you wrap your head around it, it’s actually common sense, we just lack it until we have knowledge of functional clothing and venting.

[James holden]

justin …

the newT2 has the material VERY CLOSE to the skin .. the bumps are minimal, same with the old cap4 …

a fuzzy fleece has MUCH less material contacting the sking

the other failing of the cap4/t2 is that its thicker than needed as a base layer  … in prolongued wet all day freezing rain conditions its not IF you get soaked but WHEN .. the cap4/t2 will take longer to dry out than the thinnest base layers

theres a simple test next time there HEAVY non stop rain simply go out and walk around for about an hour or two without a rain jacket (be safe) … with a t2/cap4 youre getting soaked and will feel it climbing to your skin …

with a fuzzy fleece youll still feel damp, but it will feel MUCH less soaked and it generally wont cling … and if you keep moving the body heat may even dry the fuzz enough (thermal pro)

as to “base layers” … when its absolutely soaked the entire “mid base layer” thing goes right out the window … what you want is the thinnest base layer possible for quick drying … and the fuzzy fleece … anything else just holds more moisture next to your skin

you can see who minimal the “air gap” is with these thinner grid fleeces … from left to right cap4 (2008), new T2, EB cloud micro fleece

the cap4 and T2 above with CLING to your skin when wet and put the moisture right against the skin

this isnt just some theoretical BPL thing … just go for a walk soaking wet in the rain for a few hours and youll easily find this out

hosier …

you WILL have to take off the cap4/t2 when it gets absolutely and utterly soaked in all day freezing PNW rain … and if you are out long enough you WILL get soaked eventually …

it WILL cling to your skin … and if you keep it on when its soaking you may well go hypothermic, especially if you dont have an extra fuzzy fleece to go over it

folks who havent been out on constant all day freezing rain really dont understand how wet everything gets … there simply is no dry, and being merely damp takes quite a bit of skill and luck …

there is no let up, there is no sun, there is constant 100% humidity … and everything is a mud pit … for days on end

the cap4/t2 is a fine piece, i own several … but not for absolutely soaking wet conditions

;)

 

[Rob P]

Eric,

I think that if I know I’m going to be very wet, the fishnet base layers would probably be very good.  However, I do have some questions for you…

1.  What are your thoughts about Polartec thermal pro vs thermal pro high loft in wet conditions?  That Arcteryx Covert you have in picture (in the other thread) looked pretty nice, but it looks as if the one they make now is not the same.  The Arcteryx Delta AR looks to be Thermal Pro, but it’s gridded…at least on the outside, I’m not sure what it’s like on the inside.  It is pretty thick though.
2.  If you were in the market for a thermal pro piece now, what would you get?   I have to admit that I’m a huge believer in fleece like you, but you clearly have more experience with it in more varied conditions than I.

 

[James holden]

rob …

i would look for something that is fuzzy and fluffy (not grid) …

the loft depends on what you want to use it for … if its on the move or warmer rain a lightish thermal pro (brushed fleeced inside) is fine … if its for static or exceptionally cold wet conditions then a high loft fur style inside is what you want

as to the particular fleece, i cant help you too much there, as i havent shopped for a thermal pro fleece for years (they last many many years) and the ones i own are discontinued or changed …

just look around and youll probably find plenty …

one note though … for active use get a minimum of a half if not full zip …

also never throw your fleece in the dryer if you want the inside to stay soft, just hang dry it

ive also had decent results with synth wool combos (westcomb, marmot)… as long as they weave not dense (no merino) and the inside is very fluffy … perhaps not as good as thermal pro but still usable and with better odor management

;)

[Anonymous]

I can’t speak to the new versions, but between my spouse and i, we have a few of the old PDHE grid fleeces, two Patagonia and one MEC.  I don’t find that to be the case–i find it maintains air space consistently whether soaked or not, except on shoulder area and part of the back where the pack is compressing it more.

The whole reason why Polartec designed this material this way, was for the reasons i mentioned earlier.  They took regular grid fleece and said, well, wouldn’t it be better if there was even more void/air space area.  Simple, but ingenious.  But then again, that’s what fishnets have been all about and they’ve been around for a fairly long time though not popular outside of Scandinavia (i believe that fishnet basleayer is required/standard dress code for Norwegian military).

If the top part of the high void grid fleece is directly touching your skin, then i would say a person is layering wrong.  The only parts where that should happen, is where the backpack straps are and part of the back for those that use the average internal or no framed type pack.

I would agree that the fuzzy parts should be a little more voluminous/raised to be more ideal. It’s not all about “wicking”.  Trapped, insulated air space trumps the need for wicking.  Sweat can be evaporated off the skin, as well as transfer to the material(s) above with such baselayers.  While there is some importance to wicking, overall it’s a bit over hyped in the marketing world.

[James holden]

Justin

2 things about modern grid fleeces

they are THIN and fairly DENSE

and they are made SNUG for wicking

these are the last things you want for wet conditions

the air gap is a joke once it soaking wet … How thick is a grid fleece? … 1-2mm total perhaps for the T2/cap4 …. Your skin is like half a mm from the wet dense soaking wet material

with a more open weave and fluffier inside the moisure will be farther away as body heat pushes it to the edges

imagine this youre absolutely soaked and all you have is a t2 under yr rain jacket …. Its near freezing with constant non stop heavy rain

where in the world will the moisture go???

it will all stay in the system, it cant pass through the rain jacket outwards …. In fact warm body moisture hits rain shell cooled by freezing rain … What do you get?

a thin grid fleece wont do diddly squat … It will get absolutely soaked and because its THIN and DENSE you cant push the moisture any further

also because its SNUG the fabric will cling to the body when its soaking wet guaranteeing skin contact

a more open thicker fluffier fleecw will still be soaked, but it pushed the moisture farther away leaving the fuzz less damp

as a baselayer the t2/cap4 are much too thick …. You want the thinnest if any base layers

in fact an old school trick is simply to take off your baselayer if it gets soaked …. Skin right up against the fluffy fleece

ive tested the cap4/t2 in the freezing non stop rain here over the years … Alot

and ive almost went hypothermic wearing em in such soaking wet conditions

if you havent been absolutely soaked to the bone with no possibilty of drying out, you havent tested em fully

the closest experience is swimming in cold water without a wetsuit … You MUST keep moving, if you stop you die

this isnt BPL theorizing but simple hard learned lessons

;)

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