Backpack Philosophy Advice ( Kakwa or Atom)

I will put a plug in for the SWD Movement 40L. Stripped down to a frameless pack, you will be able to match the weight of the RE40. Fully decked out, you’ll be a hair lighter than the Kakwa with much more utility. Placing a bear can on the Kakwa can be challenging. Much easier on the SWD Movement line.

On the negative side, it’s significantly more money than even the Kakwa… But less than buying two packs…

Also consider that if you need a padded hipbelt that is longer than 26” of padding you might find the Kakwa hipbelt lacking. I don’t buy the excuse that you put 20 inches of webbing or however many on the belt and it’s good for everyone.

SWD packs are sublimely comfortable and well made.

I also read someone on Reddit reported they took their class leading load capacity on one trip and the frame rubbed a hole through the bottom of the pack. However, the postings and photos were suspiciously deleted shortly after posting. Other people on this site have mentioned the frame abrading the bottom of the pack as well.

I think a lot of the bottom perforation issues with the Kakwa frame were due to a frame that had not been inserted back correctly into the pack… Not sure about that particular pack.

The SWD Movement at the moment also comes with a 26″ belt, which I found supercomfy, even when I typically have a 27-28″ belt. But SWD also adapts the belts from the Long Haul (which come in multiple sizes) to the Movement line. They must be adapted because the attachment points are in different places. Just reach out to them before ordering to sort things out.

As you say these are pretty different packs, since the Kakwa is a framed pack with load lifters etc while the RE40 is frameless with only an optional webbing belt. As they are so far apart, I would start by focusing more on the type of pack you need rather than the specific merits of these two packs. Generally speaking though you don’t want to go ‘under’ on pack capability because using a frameless pack for a heavier load is a bad time, whereas using a framed pack for a super light load is just a small inefficiency and the extra ounces aren’t that important if your load is that super light anyways.

Generally speaking, the conventional wisdom is that you want to keep it sub 20 lbs to go frameless. With your 12 lbs baseweight, a liter of water (2 lbs) and some fuel you’re at 15 lbs, so frameless would probably work for weekend trips but longer than 3 days the load is getting pretty heavy to go frameless.

Our next run of the Kakwa 40 will be a half ounce lighter at 27.5 oz. Regarding the Movement 40L it looks like an awesome pack for sure. It is lighter at 25.3 oz but mostly because it has fewer included features. If you add hipbelt pockets to it which most people do add (and are standard on the Kakwa) then the weigh is the same, and if you add shoulder strap pockets (also standard on Kakwa) then it’s heavier.

You can strip the Movement down further because more of the features are removable. Removability is a bit of a philosophical question. I prefer sewn on features like hipbelts and hipbelt pockets because when they are sewn on you get a more solid connection and the pockets become more stable and easier to use/unzip (generally speaking, I have no experience with the Movement in particular). Personally I don’t find that much value in stripping a pack because if my hike is that short/simple/light that I don’t need the full function and features then it’s probably also not really that important to shave those ounces but if you do regularly use it as a day pack or overnight pack then removability is a good thing.

“Also consider that if you need a padded hipbelt that is longer than 26” of padding you might find the Kakwa hipbelt lacking. I don’t buy the excuse that you put 20 inches of webbing or however many on the belt and it’s good for everyone.”
I agree that want a circumference of padding that is proportional to your waist size, and we certainly aren’t claiming that our hipbelt is going to work for everyone. We only have the one size of belt that works for a lot of people but some people will be too small (so they can’t tighten it) or too large (where the padding does not extend far enough. We have revised the padding for the next batch so it is 26″ / 27.5″  / 29″ for S / M / L which will work a bit better for larger folks (while working less well for some smaller people).

“I also read someone on Reddit reported they took their class leading load capacity on one trip and the frame rubbed a hole through the bottom of the pack. However, the postings and photos were suspiciously deleted shortly after posting. Other people on this site have mentioned the frame abrading the bottom of the pack as well.”
I’m not sure what Reddit report you’re referring to but I certainly don’t have any suspicious influence over the moderating team there. They delete a ton of posts on Reddit (about 80% of threads are deleted) for all sorts of reasons (mostly if they think the thread is low effort).

Anyways, it is true that a few people had issues with wear at the frame tips. The situation is a bit complicated to explain, but essentially there are circumstances where the frame tips could pressure the hipbones (mostly if the pack is worn quite low and someone has bony hips). A small % percentage of people have had this issue (maybe 1-2%) so we have updated the design for the next batch and we are also happily warrantying the pack with a replacement for anyone that has this issue. The next batch of packs has several revisions to address this, including ending the frame a little bit higher behind the hipbelt padding (so it is pretty much impossible to put pressure on the tips), plus we are adding a hypalon stiffener to disperse pressure, plus switching these small panels to Ultra 400.

I also took some other feedback into consideration for the next run, so there will be a few more grosgrain loops/lash points on the pack (although there were 4 on the original that were just hard to see by people evaluating from a photo), the aforementioned tweaks to the hipbelt and frame, and a few other refinements.

I’m talking about this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/wiyq1b/warning_durston_kakwa_40s_frame_out_of_its/

There was a poster who said he took the pack on one trip and due to abrasion the pack sustained holes where the bottom of the frame contacts the bottom of the pack. He linked some photos. All of his posts disappeared. The thread has quite a few deleted posts. Just saying its a little weird. I can’t imagine you do not recall those posts because you were active in the thread.

29″ still seems small for larger people. You do not ascribe to having the padding wrap all the way around to the hip bones? I’m 6’4″ and its about 32″ of padding I need to get full padding around to my hip bones and I have a 35/36″ waist.

I appreciate the responses everyone and the details Dan. Especially about the hip belt. I have a hard time cinching down my current pack that is supposed to fit a 33 inch hip. So at 5″9′, I’ll probably look for a medium when it comes out. Thanks again.

It makes

I know they are not directly comparable because one is frameless

Atom+ has a frame. I’m pretty happy with mine. It seems like a more direct comparison.

“The thread has quite a few deleted posts. Just saying its a little weird. I can’t imagine you do not recall those posts because you were active in the thread.”
Yes I remember that thread (now that you clarify which thread it was that you referring to). It was mostly about inserting the frame properly, but yes there was one person who reported abrasion at the frame tips. The deleted posts in that thread are almost entirely deleted by that same user. I’m not sure the situation there, but sometimes people decide to leave reddit and delete their accounts.

Anyways, yes there were a handful of frame tip issues on the first run and more commonly, some issues with people removing the frame and then re-inserting it incorrectly so it was not in the channels (since the channels are broken into two sections). Even though the latter is arguably user error, we are happily warrantying either type of damage with a replacement pack and we have addressed this for our next run. There are the updates to address the frame tip wear that I mentioned previously, and we are adding a label inside the frame pocket to explain how to properly reinsert the frame.

“I have a hard time cinching down my current pack that is supposed to fit a 33 inch hip. So at 5″9′,”
On our next run the medium will have 27.5″ of padding and then the buckle occupies another inch or so, so the minimum circumference of the hipbelt will be about 29″. People don’t always wear their hipbelt where they wear their pants, so it can be helpful to measure your girth where you do wear a pack.

I have a Kakwa, but haven’t used it extensively yet. The frame wearing through the pack appears to be due to the angle of the frame as it sits in the lower pocket. After it was mentioned online I looked at the pressure point to see if it was going to be a problem on mine. It did appear that the ends of the tubing created a pressure point, it wasn’t excessive but was noticeable. I also had an occasional squeak from that area due to the tight fit.

I pulled out the frame and used a tubing bender to bend the last inch of the frame back a few degrees, I also sanded and polished the tubing insert/cap to fit better. This entire process took less than 15 minutes.

Before I inserted the frame back in place I put a very small piece of dental wax in the bottom sleeve of the frame. Dental wax is soft and malleable and works well to reduce squeaks and friction, plus it’s cheap at Walmart.

The pressure point on the frame fabric was totally eliminated, it now aligns better with the sleeve and the lessened pressure is focused on the bottom of the sleeve, not the pack fabric.

I didn’t take any pics, but you’re limited on how much of the tubing you can bend because of the solid insert and you need a certain amount of tubing for the bender to hold on to. So I just bent as little tubing as the bender could firmly grasp, maybe an inch. Which turned out to work great. I used 800 and 1,200 grit sand paper to shape the cap, which was quicker and easier than I expected. There are a couple of edges on the cap that can be smoothed out for better alignment. I don’t think I needed to reshape the cap, but there wasn’t a downside and it may help with the squeak, so I did it.

The modified frame slides back into the pack much easier too.

There is a SWD Movement 35 and SMD Movement 50 on sale on reddit!

Back to the original topic.

I just got back from a couple of weeks of hitting great places for longer day hikes, Arches, Bryce, Zion, Valley of Fire, Death Valley, and ending with 4 days in Yosemite. My daughter loves hiking, but not so much spending nights in woods, we did it a great deal when she was younger, but now she prefers a hot shower and good meal at the end of the day (she’s 32 now). This was her dream trip which had been planned and canceled a few times due to the pandemic.

I brought a couple of framless and framed packs to see which ones I actually liked better when doing back to back to back 15-20 mile days with light loads.

I ended up using the framed packs after the first week. While Slightly heavier, there was less shoulder fatigue and a far more secure fit. The frameless packs didn’t have hipbelts, so maybe with a hipbelt they would have performed better, but then the weight creeps up closer to a framed pack.

I’ve always had a problem with carrying anything that puts much pressure on my shoulders, my arms fall asleep and start to become numb. Its not just backpacks that do this, lumber, sand bags, dog food, anything that puts pressure on the top of my shoulders. So this part pertains more to me than other other people.

But the more secure and solid fit of the framed packs were great for 80% of what we were doing, and on the easy sections the increased ounces weren’t noticed.

Some people have no problems with weight on their shoulders and frameless packs work great for them.