Backcountry Ski Gear

[John P]

I was a member here before they started charging to post and finally laid out a few bucks to participate.  Maybe you old posters will remember me as “johntp”.

Anyways, Loved my Karhu XCD’s.  When they wore out, replaced them with the 10th Mountains and Garmont Excursions.  Well, my whole BC kit got lost in a recent move.

My rig of choice is something like the Karhu XCD/10th Mountain, Garmont Excursion, Voile 3-Pin Bindings.

Karhu is gone and I’m thinking of replacing the lost gear.  I’m baffled by what’s on the market these days.

What’s the ticket these days for a similar setup?

Skis/Boots/Bindings/Skins? I don’t do AT/Randonee.

I’m thinking of these; they seem similar to the old Karhus, but don’t have anywhere around here to actually see and touch what’s out there.  Don’t particularly care if they are “waxless” or not.  Never really cared for the friction the fish scales create on long gradual downhills. But then again, they are nice on gentle up and downs.

https://madshus.com/en-us/p/panorama-m62-intelligrip-transition

[Paul McLaughlin]

I recommend you take this discussion here:

https://www.telemarktalk.com

A lot of knowledgeable folks on there.

[Jenny A]

John, I know that gear well, having owned both of those skis.  I was not aware of the Madshus Panorama; that looks pretty darn slick.  The only thing is, the alpine camber (as opposed to a backcountry or double-cambered ski) won’t give you the glide you might be looking for, but they ought to turn reasonably well.

The only other thing out there that I am familiar with is Fischer’s Easy Skin system, which looks very similar to the Madshus.  Fischer also still makes a few waxable skis which are flat, i.e. not already mounted with NNN-BC bindings.  The other task you will find is that it is getting harder to find 3-pin plastic boots like the Excursion.  The Excursion still exists under the Scott brand (they bought Garmont some years ago), and Scarpa still makes the T4 but the it tends to be a lower volume fit than the old Garmont lasts.  And Voile still makes basic 3-pin bindings, bless their corporate hearts.  If you don’t end up getting a ski that has an integrated skin system, it might be tough to find skins narrow enough for what you are looking for, although Black Diamond is still offering a couple of models.

I don’t see any reason not to snag that Madshus ski.  And if you want to go down some rabbit holes, there is a fairly active chat forum on earnyourturns.com with some folks who are quite happy skiing with this type of gear.  There are probably some other products that I’m not aware of, but this is a start.  Good luck!

[bradmacmt]

Loved my Karhu XCD’s. When they wore out, replaced them with the 10th Mountains

LOL, John, I still have my Kahru XCD GT’s and 10th Mountains!

I’ll be curious to see where this discussion goes…

[John P]

I thought this discussion might take off when folks returned to work on Monday.

Thanks for the link references.  Jenny A; I’ve never been very knowledgeable on camber, side cut, etc. When I spent a lot of time on the eastside, had friends that did a lot of guiding that where really good and gave me the skinny (pun?).  Thanks for the technical input.  Skins can be trimmed.

[Edward John M]

I use Madshus Annum skis with Scarpa T-2 plastic boots. I find the friction of the base pattern a good thing when skiing downhill with a winter weight pack on my back, they also have just enough grip for sled hauling in most gentle conditions and you can add skins for when it gets steep

I wouldn’t use a ski as wide as the Annum with a boot less sturdy than the T-2 tho and looking now that ski doesn’t seem to appear on the current US sites  line-up but it is available

https://www.crosscountryskier.com.au/madshus-annum

I am 184 tall and use the 195 ski. I often wish for a ski slightly longer

[John P]

Thanks Ed.  If it’s too steep for me to descend I leave the skins on on downhills and traverse/kick turn.  What I don’t like is with the skins on going downhill is they are erratic when wearing a pack.

You raise an interesting point.  I’m 5′-9″, 150# and tend to find skis about 180cm work best for me. Pack or not.

Side story: learned to turn on three pins after a long day of humping loads over Half Moon Pass up Rock Creek out of Bishop to support a guided trip.  After the loads were dumped, I was tired.  Still not adept at 3 pins, I fell A LOT.  Finally decided falling and getting up took more work than skiing.  Up until then I was trying to do the classic telemark turns.  Weirdly, I found a semi parallel way to turn. Looks fuggly, but work for me.

[John P]

I’ve heard this through the grapevine:

Karhu Guide, 10th Mountain, and XCD GT will appear as the Madshus Annum, Epoch, and Eon! K2/Madshus will be using the exact same molds from the previous Karhu models in order to make the “new” Madshus Cross Country Downhill Series of skis just with different graphics!

Edit:  I don’t see these on the Madshus website.  Apparently they don’t make these models anymore; but a quick visit to the interweb shows the Epock 68 is available from REI and Amazon (apparently an update to the simple “Epoch”.

[John P]

If anyone out there cares, here is what I went with:

Madshus Epoch Skis, 185cm (I’m 5′-9″, 150 lbs,)

https://www.amazon.com/Madshus-Epoch-Skis-Black-Size/dp/B01IR50KSQ/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwusrtBRBmEiwAGBPgE5eWXtL9ApkGti5uyJGYUtjMaKwsOqf5p2_c7UtWKA2QXTYItx2PsBoCbJcQAvD_BwE&hvadid=174207553577&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9025807&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o3&hvqmt=b&hvrand=9664106296830414087&hvtargid=aud-647846986441%3Akwd-20400642365&hydadcr=9377_9621494&keywords=madshus%2Bepoch&qid=1572032718&sr=8-1&th=1&psc=1

Voile 3-Pin Cable Telemark Bindings

https://www.backcountry.com/voile-3-pin-cable-telemark-binding

Alpina Alaska 75mm Boots.

https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=184

The boots are a big question mark.  Had to buy them on the net.  Hate buying footwear without trying it on.  But it seems 75mm 3-pin boots are really hard to find these days.  Not much out there.  Here’s hoping.

The skis and boots are discontinued models.  Seems 3 pin BC skiing is becoming out of vogue.

 

[Edward John M]

Tech bindings are stronger and lighter than the old 3-pin style now that most of the bugs have been worked out. So all the new boot development is going into tech binding compatible boots. I used to ski on the 3-pin cable combination, it has the advantage of being relatively light compared to the Voile I now use

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I’m on Voile Objective BCs, which are a 80mm waisted, fishscaled alpine ski. The fish scales have about 2x the grip of my old Karhu Guide’s so they are a lot more usable (e.g. much more reasonable to leave the skins at home). I’ve been on them for a couple years, but picked up new Scarpa Alien RS boots this year which I’ll continue to use with Dynafit Speed Superlite/Plum bindings. Super capable and light combo.

[Ross Bleakney]

@John — Seems like a good combination. If you don’t like the boots, you can always get different ones. You may decide to get plastic boots. I got a pair of Scara T4 boots from REI on sale. The combination of boots might actually serve you well. On a day when it is mostly rolling hills or really good snow, the leather boots might be just the ticket. Then when you go on something steeper or the snow is a bit questionable, you can switch to plastic boots. That is one advantage of a (traditional)Telemark — you have a wider range of boots for the same setup.

As far as fish scale skis go, some people love them, some hate them. I love them. I use it for all my Nordic skiing, just because I don’t want to bother with kick wax. In the wet areas of the Pacific Northwest the temperature is often very close to freezing, which makes kick wax a pain. But even for my bigger setup (Viole skis, like Dan) I like the fish scales. It is just a lot more fun to glide as much as possible, even if I end up putting on skins because the route gets steep. It is also fun to just ski down something — a little hole, if you will — knowing that it is very easy to get back up. Again, I think a lot depends on the terrain. I prefer tours that have a lot of variety (rolling hills as well as some steep stuff) while other people just want to go up, up, up then down.

[Jenny A]

John P, that sounds like a great setup, should be a lot of fun.

And AFA 3-pin telemark gear still being out there, it is but not as easy to find, as you have discovered.   One of the big reasons tele gear offerings have declined is that AT gear enables people to ski in the backcountry without having to learn a new way to turn, which is what tele is – a way to turn.  And AT gear has gotten so light that it kind of blows tele away in terms of weight, although the new telemark tech system (TTS) bindings hold promise.   But for just relaxing touring and noodling around on winter trails, 3-pin tele is still a very nice way to do that, AND you can tele!

[Julie G]

I have also been thinking of getting a pair of nordic backcountry skis. I already have AT and XC skis, but missing the pair that I can take with me on dayhikes in the backcountry (where the AT and XC wouldn’t work well). I’ve decided on the skis, Åsnes Nansen, but am unsure about which bindings to choose. Both BC and 3-pin are highly accessible here. I’m not the best skier, especially downhill with XC type skis, and would like something stable. Not planing on learning telemark turns. Would the BC Magnum bindings with a stiff boot be good for me, or would the 3-pin be superior in terms of stability? How big of difference is there?

[Edward John M]

The Nansen is a great ski, but honestly I think they deserve tech boots and tech bindings or Scarpa Terminator boots and a rigid Telemark binding like a G-3 or Voile

[Julie G]

The Nansen is a backcountry ski, not an alpine touring ski. Why would I mount tech bindings on them? I already have AT skis with tech bindings and boots, and in my experience, even with skinnier skis, that combination would not be comfortable over longer distances in flatter terrain. Åsnes themselves recommend either BC or 75 mm (ex. Voile 3-pin)

[David Chenault]

Tech gear is great, but I’ve yet to see an example of someone using such a setup for a big multiday nordic type tour that didn’t have thrashed feet.  Been there, not keen to do it again.

NNN BC probably has greater control than 3 pin when comparing otherwise identical boots.  The limits of NNN BC are in icing (eventually your binding will freeze shut), walking (the bar is slippery), and durability (use it hard enough and the bar will pull out of the boot).  If you’re not going to use your rig for hardcore multiday stuff those downsides don’t amount to all that much.

That said, my preference would be Voile Mountaineers.

[Edward John M]

@Julie Then the new Nansen must be a totally different ski to my old wood cored version which are definitely more an Alpine ski than a cross country ski and why I bought the Madshus Annums.

 

I do find that the lighter Scarpa T-2 boot a bit more comfortable than the older Terminator T-1 boot but I really need some foot massage after wearing either for 8 to 10 hours. Either of those boots is warmer and more comfortable than my old Scarpa Nor-Tour boot which is now the Andrew Clout

@Julie I was using my Nansen ski with Alpine boots { Raichle Flexon Extreme} and a step in adaptor and it was over 8 years ago. A very clunky way to ski and why I thought a modern pin binding would be a good way to go

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