Any new synthetic fills that rival down?

no

your best bet is to buy a cheap 800 fill down quilt every so many years …. EE comes to mind, or year end sales on big manufacturers bags

thats all there is to it

;)

Eric is right, nothing from the petroleum industry touchs down.

if you’re using it every single day, down will far outperform and outlast any synthetic you could find.

Have a read here the experiences of a well-known hiker who uses her gear a lot, well every single day really: http://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.co.uk/p/what-breaks-when-and-why.html

The best synthetic fill currently is climashield apex. Several companies use it, MLD Spirit quilts come very recommended they are top quality and very lightweight (here). Or if you’d like something with more durable surface fabric have a look at Kifaru sleeping bag (here) – heavy, but very tough apparently, they claim you can crawl inside with your boots on!

Out of curiosity, does anyone actually *have* an old synthetic fill bag? What exactly happens to them after lots of use that leads them to insulate less?

I have a 15-year old Moonstone bag that I haven’t used often at all, but it is just as warm as when I bought it.

I have a 12 year old 20f synthetic bag in the back of my 4 runner, the loft is still good but I don’t think it was ever very warm to start out with.

maybe you didn’t wash your old bag properly.  There’s really no reason it should be “worn out” now.  I doubt enough down has leaked out to make much difference.

One thing is to dry it and fluff it up properly. for example by putting tennis balls in the dryer.  What did you wash it with?  There are many threads here that discussed the finer details if you google it.

If you stuff a synthetic bag a lot it will compress the insulation so it won’t have as much loft so it won’t be as warm.  If you don’t stuff it a lot, it should last pretty much forever.  Theoretically.  I can’t say that I have any that this happened to.  I have a synthetic vest I’ve used for years and it still seems to be okay, but I don’t stuff it tightly.

Nope, and it will probably be awhile.  I have hopes that someday UHMWPE highly oriented fiber (the material that dyneema and spectra cord is made out of) will be turned towards UL and durable insulation.

Think Climashield Apex, but made with UHMWPE (oriented) fiber, and perhaps with some loose UHMWPE shaped, micro-fibers blended in with the continuous staple insulation.

Put it this way, density of polyester is 1.38 or so, and density of the above is .97 (floats in water), with the latter being many times stronger and more durable than polyester, while being 30% lighter.

One of the current limitations of synthetic fiber insulation is that to get a lot of warmth per less volume and weight, you have to make the fibers very small, but once you make the fibers very small, they lose a lot of their strength and durability (and so compression and general wear destroys them fairly quickly).  Using UHMWPE high orientation fibers can make up for the loss of strength and durability at smaller sizes, hence more air trapped at an already lower weight.   Theoretically speaking, you could get at least 35% increased warmth to weight efficiency, with definite increase in durability over current polyester based insulation.

Polymer aerogels also hold a lot of promise as far as synthetic insulation, but they would need to be micro hole punched so as to be breathable enough for use, or bonded to the substrates of other more commonly used woven or knitted fabric fibers like nylon.

washing down enough eventually does degrade it … down is great and last for a longtime, but nothing last forever with enough use

CAN I WASH BERGHAUS DOWN PRODUCTS?  

Yes of course so long as it is dirty, in fact we recommend it, see below for step by step instructions.

IS IT DANGEROUS?

No not at all, so long as you don’t over wash/treat the product. If you stick to the procedures and wash and dry the item correctly within reason this will actually improve a dirty jackets performance not hamper it.

CAN I WASH A PRODUCT MORE THAN ONCE?  

Yes you can, although unfortunately nothing lasts for ever. The more you wash a garment the more it will affect the performance so wash it when you need to, don’t wash it every time you where it.

WILL THIS AFFECT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE HYRODOWN® TECHNOLOGY?  

As above, the more you wash a garment the more it will affect the performance so wash it when you need to, don’t wash it every time you wear it. Our water resistant Hydrodown should last for the lifetime of the garment so long as it has been cared for in the correct way.

http://community.berghaus.com/knowledge-advice/how-to-clean-a-down-jacket/

even WM says …

We design our sleeping bags to last in the range of 25 to 40 years or perhaps longer if cared for properly and average amount of use (i.e. not a guide who may spend 200 nights a year in a sleeping bag, but normal people with careers and families who go out on many weekend camping trips and take two or three backpacking trips in a year).

http://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/83532/

PHD gives a realistic length of life …

Down
10 years
Feather & Down (F&D)<
10 years

High Quality Synthetics (HQS)
4 years

Cheap Synthetics (CS)
4 years

all things die eventually … and with heavy daily use they die faster

my 800 fill EB downlight vest gave 6 good years of DAILY service, which include me sleeping in it every night… ~1500-2000 days and nights …. while it still had some loft, by that time some of the down had degraded to the point where it didnt loft as well anymore after many washings … and some of the smaller down chambers around the neck had leaked out much of their down

EB gave me a credit for a new one

;)

No.

After 10 years of 160nights per year, it is likely just worn out. Washing has a little to do with it, like putting 10 nights a year per wash. Many quote 20-40 years, but, this more depends on usage, assuming it has always been packed dry.

Bugs can destroy down in a few months, especially if it is damp. Fungus, mold etc. all can do a number on a bag. This is fairly rare though.

Length of time down is good for must be related to use – if you use it more often it won’t last as long, not just number of years you’ve owned it

I wonder if it would be better to wash it more or less often – if lifetime is determined by number of washes, you should wash it less?

My first down bag lasted 40 years. I gave it away because it was super heavy although it was in great shape. It probably had 500 fill weight. That bag had well over 1,000 nights of use.

Jerry …

with higher fill power down you need to wash it more often … As theres less feathers to keep the loft once body oils and other such get into the down

the older lowe fill power downs you can get away with less washing …. Though with enough use the feathes break apart again leaving you with less loft

one thing is that loft loss is ALOT more noticeable on UL high fill jackets because some of them dont have too much down in the first place … And they deal with body oil/vapor and dirt more than bags on a daily basis

and the loss loft is more noticeable with modern UL fabrics than older heavier ones which can hide the fact

eventually everything dies … If yr quacking down jacket/bag died of loss loft, then it dies a guud meaningful death

;)

maybe it’s better to have lightweight synthetic jacket rather than down

the synthetic is better as a safety item in case it gets wet

the surface area of a jacket, and especially a vest, is less than a sleeping bag, so the extra weight of using synthetic is less

the weight of the fabric for baffles cancels out some of the extra weight of synthetic

That’s why I above (and a few degrees below) freezing I always use a synthetic jacket:

• it’s my insulation piece
• It serves as a back-up for if my down sleeping bag ever gets really wet.

From what I’ve read, ThermoBall is as close that synthetic gets to down, but its only claimed to be comparable to 600fp down, which is pretty low end for down.

I noticed that downlinens is selling some kind of synthetic insulation called “puffball” on their site:

http://www.downlinens.com/products/premium-washed-down

Any idea if this could be Allied Feather’s version of “thermoball”? It would be an interesting option for DIY.