Any interest in lightweight, Apex insulated vests?

Hey Justin,

These would be great with something like Alpha.

Hi Stephen,

2.5 oz Apex is warmer per weight than Alpha and is plenty breathable if it’s put between two layers of more highly breathable material.  The models i sent to Dave for testing, you can easily breathe in and blow through all layers.  These proposed new versions would be even slightly more breathable than the old.

In a way, it’s a lot like the whole Alpha concept, except more weight to warmth efficient.

Also, a cool thing about Apex, is that it’s more water resistant, since the polyester fibers are coated in silicone i think.

Good to know Justin.

Is this similar to the Thru-hiker Minima vest kit? I made one of those with 3.0 Primaloft that came in at 5 1/4 ozs. It’s a great piece of gear that I use all the time. I’ve got the material for one out of 3.6 apex, but just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

I don’t know William, as i haven’t seen that vest or kit yet. If it uses more highly breathable fabrics, isn’t insulated on the back, then yes it’s fairly similar except it uses a less durable synthetic insulation.  In any case, i will try to check out that vest.

I use an Apex one sometimes during the rare polar vortexes we sometimes get in the upper part of the SE region, because the areas i hike at most often, doesn’t have a lot of elevation gain/loss, and relatively straight stretches can feel a little chilly when it’s only 5 to 15 degrees out.

Just checked it out. The main differences are that my vest will be much more air permeable, a bit heavier, much better wicking, much cooler on the back, and considering mine would be already made–significantly better value/bang for one’s buck.

What that boils down to, is that my vest would be much better suited to active use, and will be all around significantly more durable, at not much weight increase.

The Minima vest is better for adding extra insulation for camp and sleep use.  However, if you opt for the attachable back insulated panel, then there won’t be much difference in that area.

I’m thinking if you want to go light, why not use a fabric like Nobul1?

Its super soft and wicks like no other fabric of that weight.

Justin, what about a mesh tank top to cut weight. The Brynje tanks come to mind, though this would make for a pricier garment. I imagine to reach the most folks as a general rule, you could have several design options.

Also this may be a nutty idea, but have you considered something modular, like a mesh tank that you could snap a piece of Apex onto, or a snap-on sleeve in front. Then you could swap for different thicknesses, vent more easily without removing anything, etc.

I often find myself wishing my clothing were more adjustable on the fly, especially with a pack on, and it strikes me that this is an area where a cottage manufacturer could make real inroads, because the market is more purely interested in function than the mass market.

Ah just caught the part of your post about an SUL model with velcro. Great, I’d be interested to see such a design for sure.

Another option could be a nanoseeum mesh liner (eg the lightest stuff from RBTR). Breath more than just about anything sans no fabric, and provide a little protection for the apex and structure. Possibly be more comfortable if wearing just the vest than the apex??? Personally I’d wear just the vest quite a bit, eg, get to camp, base layer soaked through, take it off, vest on. If it was just Apex for the liner I don’t know (the part you mentioned in the back that would have no liner). NS Mesh could be used also for the entirety of the liner, it would breath better than any baselayer material, and be lighter.

Very good concept. I have a jacket by local russian company Sivera, that was made with the same idea in mind (Apex+very breathable shell), and i like it very much. It is much warmer per weight than Alpha (so it is lighter) and vapour permeability is excellent, allowing you to move fast in the backcountry. With windjacket on top it becomes very efficient puffy layer on bivouac in warmer temperatures.

I think inner made of smooth breathable nylon is very practical too, because it slides better on baselayer and captures less moisture.

Roman, which jacket is it ?

“I’m thinking if you want to go light, why not use a fabric like Nobul1?

Its super soft and wicks like no other fabric of that weight.”

Hi Aaron, i did consider UL nylons like Nobul, but there are a few reasons why i would choose 1.1 oz ripstop over these.  I think Nobul and any of the UL nylons are fine for quilts, but for something that is subjected to a lot more wear and abrasion, like active clothing is, you’re going to want something more durable. I wouldn’t want to go any lower than 20D nylon on something like that, unless the fabric involved had some kind of special strengthening weave, which typically is very tightly woven (low CFM) in those cases.

Since we’re only talking about a yd of fabric or so, the weight is quite negligable, about a .4 to .6 oz difference in total weight.  If that .4  to .6 oz means the difference of lasting twice as long, then it’s a pretty good trade off in my book.

Also, the air permeability/porosity on uncalendered 1.1 ripstop nylons is significantly higher than fabrics that are typically designed to be used for quilts and the like. We’re talking easily twice the CFM in many cases.  Much better for active use, especially since this piece is most ideally combined with a windjacket/shirt anyways.

I’m not so sure about the wicking part.  My experience is that any fabric with a DWR doesn’t wick particularly well.  The DWR coating really minimizes wicking, and many of these fabrics (Pertex Equilibrium being an exception) are not designed to wick well anyways (fiber shapes are not altered from the round, not bi-component weaves, etc).

I think the idea warrants consideration Edward, but i definitely know i couldn’t afford even an initial investment in Brynje tanks specifically.

“Also this may be a nutty idea, but have you considered something modular, like a mesh tank that you could snap a piece of Apex onto, or a snap-on sleeve in front. Then you could swap for different thicknesses, vent more easily without removing anything, etc.

I often find myself wishing my clothing were more adjustable on the fly, especially with a pack on, and it strikes me that this is an area where a cottage manufacturer could make real inroads, because the market is more purely interested in function than the mass market.”

Yes, my initial idea involves offering a snap or velcro on, back panel option for those who want to use it to boost camp/rest and/or sleep insulation beyond active wear. It would be interesting to have that option for the front too, but if it’s cold enough or you run cold enough to want such a piece of gear to begin with, i’m hoping that opening up the vest and/or one’s windjacket, would be enough to thermally regulate. But i’ll consider it more deeply.

I agree generally btw, i’m a big fan of modular, adaptable equipment and wish more companies made more gear along those lines.

“Another option could be a nanoseeum mesh liner (eg the lightest stuff from RBTR). Breath more than just about anything sans no fabric, and provide a little protection for the apex and structure. Possibly be more comfortable if wearing just the vest than the apex??? Personally I’d wear just the vest quite a bit, eg, get to camp, base layer soaked through, take it off, vest on. If it was just Apex for the liner I don’t know (the part you mentioned in the back that would have no liner). NS Mesh could be used also for the entirety of the liner, it would breath better than any baselayer material, and be lighter.”

I’m not sure i’m fully understanding what you mean Adam, so with that caveat in mind, i’ll try to address the above. The kind of mesh you’re talking about is definitely very breathable and very light, which would be nice for this application, but since it’s basically designed to be an active piece, it will need to be washed more often than a typical puffy piece.  Mesh doesn’t stand up very well to machine washing compared to more tightly woven and heavier fabrics.

Also, mesh is horrible around velcro, and some of the models will involve likely involve velcro.  Perhaps mesh might work in this scenario?    Say you have the sleeveless t and instead of having the Apex sewn on the front, you have a snap on or velcro on panel.  The part of the Apex panel that goes up against the sleeveless t fabric, could possibly be mesh since if want to wash the Apex panel part, you could attach it to the shirt and that would help to protect it during a wash.

The question i have is though, will the Apex fibers tend to go through the mesh and the baselayer like sleeveless t?  Continuous staple insulation like Apex is a lot better to be used with more porous fabrics than the loose insulation’s, but there is a limit and mesh might not keep it stable enough for active use/wear?  And if fibers start to poke through those two layers and a person’s baselayer, it may make some people’s skin itchy or irritate it.

Perhaps someone with more experience and/or greater knowledge than myself can speak to this issue?    But i do definitely like aspects of the idea.

Thank you for the feedback based on experience Roman.  Good to know i’m not the only one thinking of such combinations.

“I think inner made of smooth breathable nylon is very practical too, because it slides better on baselayer and captures less moisture.”

My original prototypes had both smooth nylon inner and outer, but for these new ones, the wicking polyester fabric will be over the baselayer fabric.  But since they will be able to be opened up completely, it should be easy to get them off and on even though the inner material won’t be as slick.

It would be useful if you could bring along two liner pieces of Apex, wear one or both in front while hiking (or while being less active but with your pack on, as in hunting), and then you could put one Apex layer in the back at camp to make a full vest. If each side has a sleeve, this could work well.

To address the issue of washing, I think stipulating that the piece be laundered in a bag or pillowcase may be sufficient, or at any rate, you could offer a range of more or less durable or light weight options, and give people the choice.

The soft stretch woven nylon used in some Alpha type pieces come to mind as a nice heavier alternative for the base, rather than a noisier and more slippery ripstop.

You could also incorporate a windproof vest layer that can snap on over the base. That way you have more layering options on the fly and less reasons to need to take off your pack while moving.

For me, if I’m moving in foul weather, or in a hurry, I’m less likely to want to stop to change layers, and that is when I make poor layering decisions, so having a small piece of windproof fabric that I could pull out quickly and snap onto the vest would be great.

That would then make quite a versatile garment. You’ve have a mesh vest, a wind vest, an insulated vest, and a windproof insulated vest all in one.

Then if you needed a zip or snaps for venting at all, it could be in the windproof layer alone, because of the breathability of the mesh/netting. The whole setup could be very light and packable.

Nanoseeum type meshes:
1. Yep, no idea about filaments going through. This is something to be determined if an issue.
2. Can be lighter than just about any fabric out there, so there is that advantage.
3. Yep, if using velcro could be an issue. Could get around partially by careful design of the velcro closure also could use solid nylon where it is most likely an issue (I’m guessing the couple of inches of strip near the closure.
4. Machine washing…I think anyone wanting to use such a XUL/SUL end piece doesn’t mind if they have to hand wash it. Mesh more than stand up to that. Mesh is surpisingly durable, though I’m sure the lightest stuff from Ripstop By The Roll is less durable of course.
5. Tulle is another option-could be lighter again. I have some Tulle at home that is lighter than 0.5oz (need to test weigh a sample), it would be more than durable enough (and comfortable against skin) for this application.

Calendar/non-calendar/andor non-dwr:
1. DWR and calendaring definitely not neccessary for liner
2. Probably not for shell either for the purpose you are designing for.
3. DWR adds weight (a measureable amount).
3. Ripstop by the roll sells many fabrics as non-calendared. I’ve enquired recently and they may be able to do some also without the DWR by leaving a section off the roll or not DWRing a roll.

Kamsnaps might be a good alternative to Velcro, or in combination with.

Wobeir, it is Sivera Gamayun.
btw, Sivera (and some other russian companies) has several interesting items in production. We have some thoughts (maybe dreams) about article on BPL, in order to show them to the outside world.

You work for Sivera ?

Woubeir, no, i am just enthusiast of lightweight backpacking. We manage a similar community here (but it is hosted in social nerwork), and we stay in touch with Sivera.

Good to know.  I have been in contact with Sivera about one of their Apex jackets, but ordering their stuff and getting it to here isn’t easy.

Edward and Adam, thank you for the further suggestions and ideas. I’m considering them carefully and holistically.