active shells?

I would go with the BD Alpine Light. More air periable than the Houdini and also more durable.  The Nanosphere treatment has snow rolling right off.  It’s a great piece of kit provided you aren’t facing rain which will roll off for a bit but will eventually soak in.  Only downside is the cut around the neck isn’t great… its feels a bit constraining.

Yeah, I have read many positive reports about the Alpine Light. But also about some of the others. What I’m wondering is how they compare, since the are all aimed at roughly the same function.

If we know how they compare, everyone can choose the one that suits their situation best.

I’m also looking for some active layers for fall/ winter/ spring. I found a close to workable solution last spring after doing a lot of reading on Richard Nisley’s posts here on BPL. One I found useful was here:https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/a-new-paradigm-for-understanding-wpb-fabrics/

My current solution to an active shell (mostly for trail running) has been an OR Deviator Hoody and a Patagonia Houdini. The OR Hoody is a grid fleece with a Polartech Alpha insulated torso on the front. The less air permeable face fabric on the front of the torso slows down the cooling enough that I don’t need to throw on the Houdini immediately if I hit a windy spot or slow down for a bit. The grid fleece seems to excel at dissipating heat when I’m putting out a lot of watts. I’ll wear a lighter base layer if it’s warmer outside.

Given my perspiration rate, the Houdini isn’t quite breathable enough and I wind up a bit wetter than I’d prefer when I put it on. I’ll be looking to get another wind shell this winter and I’ve got my eyes on the Arc’teryx Incendo, Black Diamond Alpine Start, and Patagonia Houdini Air. A hood is pretty important to me and I’d want it to pack pretty small while I’m headed uphill.

Note: I was a bit confused by the Black diamond Alpine Light you mentioned. Google only seems to show me a pair of soft shell pants when I search for that.

Sorry, Yes, alpine start:

https://bedrockandparadox.com/2016/04/01/bd-alpine-start-hoody-the-final-word/

My first windshirt was an anorak (pullover with big kangaroo pocket)  from Kelty, worn over a short sleeve polyester polo..  Later, Bean’s made an almost identical one, but just a little slimmer (less baggy).  They were made of durable nylon, which made them quite heavy, but were great for bushwhacking and snow shoeing, and still wear the Bean’s for that when out just for a day.  But for 3 season backpacking. it did not justify its weight.  And I reasoned, ‘why a windshirt when a fleece top will provide warmth when needed, and I can put on the WPB top in serious rain.’

Then bought a Montane pullover windshirt of similar design that is gossamer light, and just by adding a little mesh to what was intended only as front vents, created a big kangaroo pocket like the old heavy anoraks. But before every backpack, decided to leave it behind, again on the theory that a fleece top and rain jacket would be enough.

Then a funny thing happened.  Really missed it.  Not even sure why.  Just wanted to have it along for windy weather.  Maybe it was because digging out the fleece top was a hassle, compared to just slipping the Montane out from under a strap on the back of the pack.  Maybe it was because it provided all the barrier needed in windy summer weather, without sometimes sweating under even the lightest grid-type fleece.  Besides, wanted to keep the fleece dry in the pack for use when really needed, and not damp from occasional drizzles.

So the Montane made of a much lighter nylon became a staple.  Especially for Rocky Mtn trips that could be quite windy, and in high, open country where abrasion to the fabric is virtually nil, and often with much less rain compared to weather in northern New England.

A note about DWR.  Use sprays – Tectron  (without siicone) until obsolete, and am now partial to Grangers for refreshing the DWR when needed..

Also have a synthetic puffy top and bottom, totaling one pound, for use over the fleece in the tent when very cold.  Bought these from BPL when they were actually selling gear, although there is some uncertainty about whether it is PG Delta, or something better Ryan was able to come up with.  Anyway, besides keeping me warm during meals, they increase the temp rating of the bag by around 10 degrees F..

But this is about the mystery of the windshirt that stuck like a Linus-type blanket.  And am still not sure why.  All that is usually worn under it is the light but sturdy short sleeve polyester polo shirt.

Using wind shells has more subtleties but ultimately results in being more comfortable across a wider temperature range.

I would absolutely not wear an insulated wind shirt under any circumstances for backpacking but I often do for cycling, climbing, or cross country skiing. If it is *very* cold I may wear one for a day hike or a run. Pairing the insulation with the wind resistance is a lot less flexible than a simple 100wt classic fleece and any simple fabric wind shirt.

For a wind shirt the Airshed is made from the same fabric as the Nano Air. A little too breathable for me, with more emphasis on shirt than wind.

The Houdini Air looks like Patagonia’s answer to the Squamish. I often take either the Squamish or Houdini (classic) depending on whether I want more breath ability or better warmth/wind resistance. If I am going hard the Squamish is an easy winner. If I am taking it a little slower, the Houdini is a lighter option with a fair bit better weather resistance. I would not rely on either for serious rain protection but in a light sprinkle it can be preferable to wearing a hard shell. Snow bounces right off of either, and mosquitoes do too.

Usually if I have to pick one I still prefer the classic Houdini. Most here bemoan the lower breathability but if you aren’t going full out it is much better at taking the edge off cold winds and also a better jacket to have in a case where you may not have any other layers to wear. It’s probably my most used piece, even for travel and city wear.

We call the modern Houdini, the “Never Leave it Behind” because it is so lightweight. I like the black, because when I pull it out of the pack it’s because I want warmth. The hood, though seldom used, makes the piece much warmer for its weight.

The Houdini is sized funny. I had to go up about 3-4 sizes before it would fit over my puffy. Generally I don’t use it over the puffy except in camp, but I sure want that option.

I hardly ever hike in it, guess because I’m a fair weather hiker. It is perfect for putting on when you reach the windy ridge where the great views are.

Don’t have Patagonia, but own Tantrum II, Alpine Start, and Kor Preshell. Recently  did sweat test of these.

No science here, just sharing my experience. I wore same clothing for each test and weather conditions were very similar.

Clothing: Marmot Windridge SS, Marmot Sunrift hoody, polyester shorts, merino socks, Asics trail runners. I chose the Marmot as under layers because both are highly breathable and have built in venting. The test jackets were all size large and worn zipped just below neck, all pocket zippers closed.

Conditions: 6am – 8am, partly cloudy, 62-65 degrees, humidity 64-70%, wind 5-10 MPH, major trails in regional park, several steep inclines. Followed same route for each test.

1. Outdoor Research Tantrum II ( 4.7 oz., 100% nylon 20D mechanical stretch ripstop) When I got home the interior of the jacket was quite wet. Despite the thinness of the fabric, water vapor does not seem to pass through efficiently. It did, however, dry pretty quickly once I had it off.

2. Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody (7.4 oz., Schoeller® stretch-woven with NanoSphere® , 40 CFM) No moisture on interior of jacket with exception of few drops on chest BD logo. Layers were only somewhat damp. Pretty amazing.

3. Mountain Hardwear Kor Preshell Hoody (4.9 oz, Pertex® Quantum Air™ 20-denier stretch ripstop nylon, 20 CFM, DWR) Very little moisture inside jacket, mostly under armpits and back of neck where there is a large logo they put on a flap that hangs down. You can definitely feel the airflow through the quantum material. Not as breathable as BD Alpine, but still very good.

Other Observations

The Kor Preshell is my favorite in terms of style, fit, and functionality. It has two zippered hand pockets as well as an interior pocket. Material has very nice soft feel against skin, close athletic fit, great stretch. Sheds light precipitation. Major downside is durability with a backpack. There is significant pilling and abrasion on the back and under under arms from the mesh straps and backing of the pack after only several uses. The pack is a lightweight 22 L daypack lightly loaded.

The BD Alpine Start Schoeller material is tough, stretchy, water resistant and very breathable. The cut is fairly slim, but not as athletic as the Kor Preshell. Just one fairly large chest pocket, zippers work well. Hood is quite large, but has adjuster. I recently wore this as outer layer with merino 120 base and Marmot grid fleece mid. Temps low 50s and little moisture developed in jacket.

OR Tantrum II I actually wear quite a bit. Good fit, sheds light rain, lightweight. Good for casual use, chores, moderate activity. I do not use for highly aerobic activity.

Thanks Michael!

I did just get the Peak Mission for my wife, and it definitely falls in the ‘more air permeable’ category.

Peak Mission looks pretty interesting, sort of light active insulated. Curious about CFM on that, let us know how it goes.

For the conditions Patagonia describes for Peak Mission would probably use either my Atom SL or Marmot Alpha 60 over Rab Merino+120. I was looking at their Nano Air Light Hybrid Hoody recently. Specs say 40 CFM front, 130 CFM on back waffle knit. From reviews, sounds like pretty limited precip resistance, but could see it as midlayer paired with BD Alpine Start or light WPB shell like my Marmot Bantamweight.

No the Peak Mission is far less insulated than anything like what you mention. I think that’s just a case of poor description on their part, or more positively, it’s because they are talking about running.

First of all, it is only insulated on the front of torso and top of shoulders and arms.

Second, it is truly minimal insulation. In the pics you can see how open a grid it is, and it is only ~3mm/ 1/8” thick in the thick parts.

So So, from handling it, I would really say, thinkof it as a wind shell with a tiny bit of added warmth on the front, to create a similar effect as a more windproof fabric there I think.

Thanks! That is pretty minimal insulation. My Atom SL has insulation front and back. Sleeves and hood are uninsulated and sides/ sleeves have thin torrent stretch fleece. Same stuff as my Adahy Hoody. The insulated parts are 40 coreloft though so no doubt much warmer than Peak Mission. Atom works well for me even into upper 60s over light layer. Most frequently worn piece. The Marmot Alpha is warmer, but breathes very well.

How are you planning to use Peak Mission? Layers, temp range?

I love your pic of the rolled up sleeve on the Atom SL.  What was Arc thinking by not adding some sort of wrist cuff?! I’m always rolling mine up and wishing there was some Velcro strap or something to keep it in place…

Agree, wish they had done the cuff similar to my LT or even something as simple as Ascendant or Marmot Alpha. I get what they were going for with top hand coverage, but not necessary, sleeves are right length for me without that. I wouldn’t want Velcro hook and loop or anything like that, just some elasticized cinching. That said, SL is still my favorite and most versatile piece. Wore it this morning on trails over a Rab Merino 120. Overcast, misty, light wind, 62 degrees. Perfect.

Has anybody tested the HH on the new Houdini Air? Also does anybody know if its a permanent silicone encapsulated garment like some of the older houdinis (similar to Nexte Epic) or is it standard C6 DWR coating?

For a different take on the subject, I recently acquired a Rab Alpha Flash Jacket (8.2 oz).  Amazing as it sounds, it’s just alpha insulation with no face fabric!  Unbelievable breathability when moving (excess heat just flashes off, hence the name) and warmth when not.  Paired with my BD Alpine Start for these windy, cool Autumn days (we’ve even had some snow) it’s unstoppable! They’re hard to find; I got mine at Moosejaw.

Interesting, been experimenting with different layers (Torrent (Adahy) Polartec grid fleece, Neothermo) under my Alpine Start. Alpha Flash has thin fleece on arms and sides of torso like Atom SL.

Norrona Lofoten Alpha Raw seems pretty similar except it uses power grid fleece in hood, arms, and torso sides and has hand warmer pockets. I really like the alpha lined hood on my Ascendant and Marmot Alpha 60 to take chill off.

Monty – I got the Rab Alpha Flash for $87.50 from Campsaver in September.  Size L in “Horizon/Maple”, which looks red to me.  I plan to pair it up with an Arcteryx Squamish this fall/winter.

Admittedly, I haven’t had it out yet.  Busy with work and house renovations.

Has anyone gotten it totally soaked or can someone test it? The alpha fabric looks like it would not absorb much water and ring out well but those side panels with stretch people have complained are a different story.