A good alternative to WPB gear for ACTIVE backpacking

@Daryl, :D Totally cool. I have no problem with people mispronouncing or misspelling my name. I go by “iago”, but when I capitalize it, people who meet me via correspondence call me “Lago” somehow when they write back. So my practice for several years now has been not to capitalize it so at least the sound is right.

On another note, wondering whether neoprene clothing would be more comfortable than foam in your case…

I have a neoprene hooded coat that I bought from a skin diving shop.

It works well but is almost twice as heavy as a float coat made of lighter foam.  Comfort is similar.

My lightest option, however, is using my closed cell foam sleeping pad as a vest.

Eric,

Thanks for the tip.  I lost a long one this AM after editing one word.

Maybe its a feature added for lifetime members like myself who talk too much?

“Just as an experiment, try starting with minimal clothing instead. To be sure, you will be cold for the first few minutes until your metabolism gets going.”

Jerry,

I’ve tried this experiment many times with every variation I can think of.  Here’s a description of one of those times.

Started out with temps in 30sF wearing the lightest, thinnest, coolest, most breathable short sleeved nylon t shirt that I have found. I was very very cold but not shivering.

As we headed up hill the sweat started and I got even colder. I let things proceed in this manner for 20 minutes or so. Kept sweating and getting colder and colder due to the wetness of everything. My hands got really cold and lost a lot of dexterity and I was starting to stiffen up.

At this point I abandoned the experiment and started adding layers. By the time we reached the ridge I was wearing all of my clothes and they were all wet and I never did get even close to warm. It was snowy and breezy and I was really cold.

Didn’t get warmed up until I got to camp, put on dry clothes and jumped into the tent and sleeping bag. I’ve conducted similar experiments many times over the last 50+ years of backpacking. Results are always similar. For comparison, my hiking partner wore a thin synthetic pullover the entire time and was warm and dry throughout

Can you suggest something I could have done differently? The thin nylon t shirt was as close to no shirt as one could get.  It would have been unsafe, in my opinion, to allow the experiment to continue any longer.  I was getting even colder, not warmer.

Foam is my friend.

Hi Daryl,

Glad to hear the foam works for you! I only suggested the neoprene since I wondered if that would be a more comfortable option than foam, but I don’t have experience wearing it outside the water and as you say it’s heavy. As we discussed previously, we are all different.

Since you ask about suggestions about what to do differently, I personally would never chose a nylon shirt as a warmth layer. I wonder why you do… They way they tend to be woven or knit does not seem to work for me (I can’t speak for others). And I find nylon to dry more slowly than polys, and sort of suck the heat out of my body. Personally, for warmth, polyester or polypropelene that is knit in a fuzzy fabric seem to work best. And also wool, but if you sweat profusely, it may not be the best… I am also always afraid to recommend it as I have had very bad luck with the durability of 100% wool. I’m actually not a fan of some power dry fabrics, as I find them cold when I rest, whether I am dry or sweaty. I’m certain you have tried these lightweight “fuzzy” shirts before. If you haven’t and want to give them a shot, the ones I buy for my son (kids grow fast as we all know) are the the following:

There are pricier interactions, but this seems to work well enough and if you haven’t tried it, it comes with free returns. I would choose these over the majority of the expensive power dry interactions around. Personally, I prefer the fuzzy looking Helly Hansen Lifas (not the power dry looking ones), Rab MeCo and Super.natural, but again, we all have our preferences, so don’t pay me too much heed. Just throwing out alternatives to the nylon shirt. That first layer would be a failing part of your system in my case.

@Roger, since we use similar poncho systems, where do you, and others, stand on the use of a belt in windy conditions? How do you secure it? Do you choose shock cord or non-elastic?

Disappearing posts: Ryan is looking at the problem. It is real.

Iago: ponchos and bungee cord. No, we don’t use bungee cord at the hem. If you have a look at my MYOG Poncho article, you will see a photo at the end which shows what I do instead. The key bits are reproduced here:

“At the corners, F (the side seams in the pattern for the main body), I have added about 125 millimeters of hook and loop tape, with the hook part attached to one corner and the loop part to the other. This allows me to fasten the two corners, F, almost together underneath my pack if I wish. Doing so significantly reduces the amount of flapping around the poncho does in high wind: there is now no risk of the poncho flying up over my head. This doesn’t stop the wind from filling the poncho, as may be seen here, but it does keep it in place on the pack.”

I can definitely confirm that this works excellently. We have been using this idea for years.

Cheers

Hi Daryl

re sweating: Oh. Blimey. I have no idea what to suggest! My sympathy.

Cheers

iago,

“I personally would never chose a nylon shirt as a warmth layer”

Me neither.  Just the opposite.  For the experiment it was the least warm thing I could wear without being bare skinned.  I wanted to start out hiking as cold as I could tolerate to see if the sweating could be avoided.  It couldn’t.

For warmth I prefer fuzzy polypropylene as a base layer.

@Roger, thank you. I just sewed my first pair of tyvek chaps. I have to see if how long it takes me to bring my skill to that level.

@Daryl, as I guessed, you have tried all the standard tricks… Good luck!

Back to capital letters… I capitalized both Daryl and Roger’s names, but it reverted back to lower case upon posting. No big deal, I guess…

This ‘you will get wet’ thing is a puzzle to me.  Not as easily solved as the post-eating edit bug just by scanning and copying longer posts before hitting the edit button.

Admitted, there was a time, when Goretex was young, and so was I, burning like a furnace when schlepping uphill with a 50+ lb. pack.  None of that WPB stuff seemed to work very well.  Even bought some Goretex and made a jacket, and it delaminated in the first washing.  Still have the thing, and it is sad to look at all that design and sewing work that went for naught.

Here in the Northeast US, it can rain for many days, and the fates have decreed that it will do so whenever I step out for more than a couple days.  Even the dogs know that if we turn around and go back to the car, the sun will automatically come out.  Colorado is so much nicer, so off we go on Interstate 80.

When I still had that internal furnace, the solution was to wear nylon shorts (Patagonia ‘Baggies’) and tight shortie Goretex gaiters over the tops of the ‘waterproof’ boots, which still got damp inside by the second day of rain.  But up top, I was always dry, with a Goretex bucket rain hat and a Patagonia Specter pullover, one of the earlier more substantial ones with no kangaroo pocket.  Found a good photo at: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/645986/    The Specter was marked down from $150 to $100 at the former Northface outlet on Main St in Littleton NH.

When the 8 oz M10 came out, waited for a good sale, but it still cost my brother $250 at Christmas time.  But it was worth the greater amount spent on his present.  My legs get cold backpacking in the rain now, so shell pants are often a must, and they do get wet after a few hours,  But everything remains dry and cozy up top, although I wish Patagonia wouldn’t keep making their jackets shorter and shorter.  The Specter was long and loose to go over climbing gear, but the light jackets are now apparently styled for runners.  No surprise that people keep jogging by me on even the remotest trails.  Maybe the slim fit is part of the ‘getting wet’ problem.

To sum up:  1) Keep the hood rolled down at the collar and wear a WPB bucket hat; 2) Try an M10 if you can find a sale; 3) Use fleece under the M10, but only if chilling out; 3) Try shorts and short gaiters; 4) To avoid heating up, just take it easy – everything is slippery and dangerous when wet; and 5) Use the shell pants, brought primarily to protect from sunburn, if hypothermia looms in freezing rain. On a related note, bring traction in case the rain ices up.

Works for me.  Been dry up top in the rain as long as I can remember, while still backpacking light in the shoulder seasons.  Wish I had some better suggestions to offer those who suffer.

Mike M.,

You said, “Richard- have you put the BD Alpine Start under the microscope by chance?”

See my 3/7/14 post in this thread Here

^ good info- thanks!  did you have an opinion on whether the nanosphere was encapsulated?  it sure acts like it??

Daryl,

maybe I’ve missed it but have you ever in your ‘experiments’ tried changing your pace ?

As e.g. I have found a pace that feels natural to me. While I could go (much) faster, this natural pace feels just … natural. I adjust it uphill to a pace which again feels natural, without exerting me or taking my thermoregulation to its extremes.

Sam & Woubeir,

Thanks for your suggestions.  Have tried variations on all of them many times without success.  It took me a long time to accept that I will be wet when backpacking.  No escape from it.

This might put things in perspective.  It is a five minute level walk to my former barbershop.  I walk there at a leisurely pace.  I bring a towel to wipe the sweat off my head before the haircut.

About six months ago my barber said “enough” and asked me not to come back.  I don’t blame him.  I was sweating even more than usual and the hair clippers was groaning as it struggled through my thin but wet hair.  Sweat was dripping from the end of my nose and I couldn’t easily wipe it because my hands were under the barber’s smock.   Gross!  He accused me of  inconsiderately jogging to the barbershop because he couldn’t understand how I could be so wet without doing so.

If I’m sitting on old varnished dining room chairs my back sweat and heat will sometimes soften the varnish.  As the dinner progresses things cool down.  Then, when I get up, the chair comes with me because it is now sticking to my back.

I should be on exhibit in a circus cage.

Richard, sorry for the hijack.  Hopefully  this post will end it so we can get back to a wpb discussion.

@roger, since we use similar poncho systems, where do you, and others, stand on the use of a belt in windy conditions? How do you secure it? Do you choose shock cord or non-elastic?

One of the problems with the standard poncho/tarp, which is usually 5′ x 8′, is it is too big as a poncho and too small as a tarp. Yes, tying a cord around the waist in windy weather helps, but there is a lot of extraneous material in “poncho” mode.

For the past 6 years I have been using a ZPacks poncho/groundsheet as my primary rain gear. It is much smaller than a poncho/tarp and with my largest pack, a McHale LBP 36, is not super easy to put on, but once on it works well. This poncho is also rather short — only going down to about mid-thigh; so in really cold rain, I need to wear a rain skirt to keep my legs warm. Having my lower legs uncovered is fine in cold weather, as long as I keep moving. Although ponchos have a large opening for the arms, which really aids in ventilation, and you can walk with your arms pulled in close to the body to keep warm, that can’t be done with trekking poles in hand — but I don’t use trekking poles.

Bottom line: with my set up I stay dry, even when hiking all day in the rain; no getting wet from the inside or outside.

zPacks poncho vs regular poncho

Daryl,

intruiging. Has a medical cause or causing it by taking some medications ruled out ?

Woubeir,

My Drs. have found nothing to contribute to the sweating medically and  chalk it up to natural variation in the human condition, as do I.  I’m definitely an outlier on this trait, however.  I used to sweat at the rate of about 3 pints per hour when jogging, for example.

I’m above average healthy and don’t take any medications.

I’m also better looking than most people think. .

I went the Paramo/PCU hybrid a year ago after talking to a few people.  My current system is an OR Echo T and then a Mountain Hardwear MicroChill Lite Zip T and/or a Patagonia R2.  The Zip T is Polartec Microfleece-esque and the R2 Thermal Pro so that there is a smooth side close to the body and a bumpy side facing out as Paramo and Cioch do for something similar to bicomponent materials and move moisture away from the body. For the top I wear a Patagonia Gen II Level 4 windshirt and use a generic poncho/tarp over that if needed.  I don’t get cold and maybe a bit moist at the most and been okay from 70F to -20F with up to 45 mph winds.

So yeah, according to Richard’s original post you can substitute a lot of things but it is that EPIC layer that is tricky as there are really no commercial variants out there.

Is the military gear that heavy? I have a hard time finding weights.  Also are all the level 4 shirts EPIC?

It also looks like none have hoods so a hat would be needed.

Good suggestions, I know I get super swampy as soon as I put on my rain jackets.  I’d also be for something a big more rugged as long as it’s not crazy heavy.  I think my military goretex parka is about 2 pounds.  It is really rugged and works great for me.

What is the deal with the level 5 soft shell layers?  What’s the weights and how would you use them?

Not really heavy, I think my XXL L4 is around 8-10oz but it is also 70D. I was told by military guy at Patagonia that all of their Level 4 stuff was EPIC.  The old stuff does have hoods, the more digi cam print stuff, not usually.

Mike M.,

You said, “did you have an opinion on whether the nanosphere was encapsulated?”

As of Jan 2011 they started using C6 like most of the major brands. See Here

Todd,

You said, “Is the military gear that heavy? I have a hard time finding weights.  Also are all the level 4 shirts EPIC? It also looks like none have hoods so a hat would be needed.”

The L4 block 0, 1, and 2 (versions) have hoods. All the L5 blocks have hoods, weigh about 2x the L4 and much more fully featured including stretch. The XL weights for the L4 versions I have tested run between 10 and 12 oz. depending on the manufacture and version.

Is the military gear that heavy? I have a hard time finding weights. Also are all the level 4 shirts EPIC? It also looks like none have hoods so a hat would be needed.

Yes, the Gen III ECWCS Level 4 shells are EPIC AFAIK (at least they are all silicon encapsulated nylon to meet spec). I purchased a NWT small-long (I normally wear a medium in most brands) on eBay for around $40. It weighs 13.2 oz. I find the big chest zips to be very functional. A hood would be very nice.

The SOF PCUs have hoods, but hard to find a good selection on eBay. All go for around $100.

The other option, which was mentioned previously, is the Wild Things windshirt and pants, which you can purchase direct.