A Better Down DWR From TORAY?

Hmmm, no replies must mean no interest in a better down DWR. I’m surprised.

If you look at KUIOU’s site and the info on this DWR its submersion test graph shows it to be significantly better than the next best DWR, by a huge margin.

Nikwax’s new DWR down claims 10,000 minutes on the industry IDFB 18a Shake Test. I don’t know how that compares to the IDFL test.

Hmmm, no replies must mean no interest in a better down DWR. I’m surprised.

For me, wet down barely rates a blip on my backpacking problemometer.  I’m very careful to keep my down products dry.  If I had down products with better DWR, I would be very careful to keep them dry.

“I’m very careful to keep my down products dry.  If I had down products with better DWR, I would be very careful to keep them dry”

🤣

Todd,

Yep, me too, I “try” to keep my down dry at all times.

BUT… what about your sleeping bag on day 3 of a damp trip with no chance to air it out?

Or your down jacket or vest after a cold day on the trail? Yep, both are getting wet from body moisture. THEN is when you need down DWR.

‘Do or not do; there is no try.’
I keep my down gear dry at ALL times.

day 3 of a damp trip with no chance to air it out?
Just because it is a damp trip does not mean my quilt gets damp. I make very sure there is ventilation through my tent, and for those conditions I take a genuine double-skin tent. (ie, not one of those single skin tents with a netting interior.)
The heat of my body keeps my quilt reasonable functional.

Or your down jacket or vest after a cold day on the trail?
You have GOT to be kidding! I never wear any down gear outside in wet weather! That is just silly!
For such conditions I use fleece, not down. It can insulate even when damp. Fleece with a DWR-treated windshirt over the top is good.
I may wear a duvet outside first thing in the morning IF the weather is fine. There is no risk there.

There is no such thing as ‘bad weather’; just badly selected and used gear. Unquote.

Cheers

BUT… what about your sleeping bag on day 3 of a damp trip with no chance to air it out?

Maybe there’s an edge case there, but I’ve never encountered it.

Or your down jacket or vest after a cold day on the trail? Yep, both are getting wet from body moisture. THEN is when you need down DWR.

Roger beat me to it.  I would never–ever–wear my warm jacket, regardless of its insulation type, while on the move.  Everything I need to stay warm in camp is always in waterproof protection all day long.

My point was in response to your surprise at the lack of interest.  I’m not surprised because I suspect many are in the same boat as me, having never encountered a down problem that needs solving.  And I’m skeptical of what the treatment might do to my down’s longevity, weight, etc., so my interest in DWR is low.

“I’m not surprised because I suspect many are in the same boat as me, having never encountered a down problem that needs solving.  And I’m skeptical of what the treatment might do to my down’s longevity, weight, etc., so my interest in DWR is low.”

+1

There is no such thing as ‘bad weather’; just badly selected and used gear. Unquote.

I don’t know, man…I’ve been in some weather that – despite my relative comfiness at the time – seemed pretty bad. ;)

In all seriousness, though; I agree with you on this one.  No matter the environment, the best and worst experiences I’ve had have largely hinged upon correct gear selection for the task at hand.  And yeah, the puffy jacket stays in the bag until it’s time to loaf out at camp; that’s where the puffy jacket is happiest.  I know, because it told me so…and the puffy jacket never lies.

Come to think of it…I’m not sure I have ever owned anything with a DWR down in it.  I’ve always tried to mimic a goose and keep my DWR outside my down.

Roger,

I’m not kidding about wearing down while on the trail. I seldom do it but have done it when the weather turned much colder during the day, usually due to increasing wind.

Yeah, often I wear quilted synthetic insulation on the trail but on a camping trip I never take fleece due to its weight.

BUT… this talk of always keeping down gear dry is really saying, “We don’t need no stinking’ down DWR.” OK, fine, if that’s your reality. But it ain’t mine. I happen to LIKE down DWR and think any improvement in it is a good thing. And it looks like TORAY may have made a big leap in that area. ‘Nuff sed.

KUIU says that the International Down and Feather Laboratory (IDFL) in Salt Lake City, UT did this test. That makes me have faith in the results.
Unfortunately, the fact that IDFL is involved makes me DISTRUST the results. They have a poor reputation in Europe because they essentially fudge the testing to get higher values. Stuff rated at 850+ by IDFL may be about 650 by European tests.

Cheers

Yeah, often I wear quilted synthetic insulation on the trail but on a camping trip I never take fleece due to its weight.
That, in my not so humble opinion, is exactly what I criticise about some ‘UL’ preaching: putting weight above function.

If the conditions are such that I might need more insulation while traveling, then I take insulation which can handle traveling with a pack on. That is fleece, not down. I will probably also have the down gear, but for use inside the tent.

If I want to go out at -15 C, I accept that I will need extra gear. Yes, that is extra weight. Fortunately my normal gear is fairly light, so I can handle the extra weight. After all, I go out to enjoy myself, not on some heroic mission. I will NOT go ‘stupid light’, ever.

</rant>
Cheers

I could have sworn we beat this DWR Down Treatment up a month or two ago….could be mistaken??

While living in the PNW for a decade I always preferred fleece and synthetics while on the move and it is (in my opinion) easier to layer them under shells creating a functional and versatile system…and continue to use this even though I now reside in a much drier climate. I do carry a light weight down puffy in colder weather but only for inside the shelter or around camp when aerobic activity is minimal. All my high end down garments/bags do not have treated down and prefer untreated…..as this has been successful for longer than I have been alive. I still think it is telling that many of the premier manufacturer of down garment (WM, Valandre, Feathered Friends) still have refrained from  the use of treated down.

“If I want to go out at -15 C, I accept that I will need extra gear. Yes, that is extra weight. Fortunately my normal gear is fairly light, so I can handle the extra weight. After all, I go out to enjoy myself, not on some heroic mission. I will NOT go ‘stupid light’, ever.”

+1 to the above statement…..totally agree.

We need to differentiate between water vapor condensing inside the bag or garment, vs liquid moisture from outside.

The latter is much easier to prevent. Even there, I still see benefits:

For example, I carry my down parka for winter day trips. It is used at rest breaks and in emergencies. If it is raining, I wouldn’t pull it out. But what if it is snowing? And in an emergency, I am sure the bivy sack or other shelter, will get quite wet on the inside from condensation after a few hours.

It might also, like @Danepacker says, sometimes get pulled out for wear  while moving. I don’t plan on that, but you don’t always get your moving speed and weather forecast,  including windchill and solar gain, exactly right.

Then there is winter camping. What if it is below freezing, and snowing?

Sometimes I will try and wear my shell over my down parka, but at the very least that is challenging for fit, and sometimes, you might be just popping out of your tent and sleeping bag briefly, and not want to bother with putting on a shell jacket and pant in the dark.

In all those cases, having a garment with the packability and durability of down, is very worthwhile, so if I can have that, with better moisture resistance, it would be wonderful.

The other issue is moisture from water vapor. The problem there is we don’t know whether the DWR treatments help with that at all.

Of course, like @Rcaffin said, good shelters and venting can help, but in cold weather, the dew point will be inside your bag, and there will still be condensation forming inside your bag. In very cold weather the same will be true for down parkas.

Has anyone seen any information on that yet?

“In all those cases, having a garment with the packability and durability of down, is very worthwhile, so if I can have that, with better moisture resistance, it would be wonderful.”

I agree with the above “if” that proved to be the long term outcome. Initially the DWR may/will help with moisture resistance but before applying the DWR they strip the down of its natural oils. When the DWR wears off (which it most likely will) what is going to be the long term durability (and performance) of DWR treated down in that state vs untreated down?