waterproofing for fabrics

I think most people are using the nikwax wash in treatment.

a treatment wouldn't make it waterproof, just waterrepellent.

"Waterproofing" to me is one big marketing misnomer. Sprays provide "an assist" by causing most of the raindrops to bead up and roll off — rather than soak through. But it is the laminate or coating underneath the surface that does the "blocking".

If your garment is not waterproof to begin with — or the waterproofing laminate/coating is worn — then no amount of surface treatment will render your garment rain proofl

Now that your jacket's been washed — use "waterproofing" spray by all means — but if rain soaks through — then don't waste your money on any more after-market products. It's time to invest in a new jacket. BTW, when it comes time to shop — eVent performs significantly better than any Goretex.

When the Goretex was new, it was highly waterproof. Even though it looks new, sporadic use over 15 years may have left contaminants inside the laminate/membrane. That's why I washed it. I just haven't tested it further.

When the Pertex was new, it was somewhat water resistant. That degree is gone now.

Why is wash-in Nikwax better than spray-on Nikwax?

–B.G.–

Hi Bob

First thing: do not mix silicone sprays and fluorocarbone treatments: they are totally incompatible. If you do, nothing will work thereafter. Scotchguard was a silicone spray.

Next thing: do not mix waxes with either silicone or fluorocarbon, for the same reason. Nikwax is indeed a wax treatment.

Third thing: do not use ordinary household detergents before any waterproofing treatment: the stuff they leave on the fabric will totally block any treatment. That includes brighteners, odours, fillers, UV blockers, etc etc etc. Use something like Atsko Sports Wash – maybe twice the first time.

Most modern outdoors gear is treated with a fluorocarbon. It lasts a lot longer than any silicone – the latter tends to wash off in the rain.

The primary line of defense for a jacket is the DWR on the surface. Keep that in good condition so the fabric does not wet out. The 'standard' treatment then is a good wash followed by a fluorocarbon spray or was, followed by a hot tub,e-dry to set the stuff.

The only place I use a silicone spray is on a silnylon tent. It can help there.

Cheers

Roger, you have mentioned fluorocarbon, silicone, and wax, and you suggested not to mix them.

The Goretex label specifically said to wash it in ordinary powdered detergent and tumble dry it warm. I did that. At the last time that I checked, Goretex had some PTFE components, and that would seem to suggest use of fluorocarbons as treatment.

Nikwax is a wax-based treatment.

So, let me ask the question again. What is the best waterproofing treatment for one Goretex rain shell and one Pertex rain shell? Or, do I need different treatments?

I sense some differences of opinion.

–B.G.–

I would not feel comfortable claiming that "X" was "the best" unless I had tried, and compared, all options.

That said, I use McNett ReviveX exclusively and have no intention of switching. It has always performed…and lasted. I have used it on:

WM Megalight
Marmot Predator (membrain)
Marmot RockRidge (Gortex)
Marmot Exum (3L Gortex Pro)
MH Transition (Gortex NTS)
MH WindStopper Fleece

It performed beautifully on each piece.

you know u should just buy a dead bird with yr yankee dollahs bob …

but just in case you dun …

;)

Eric, I don't see ReviveX on that test chart. What's up with that?

Is it unavailable for maple dollahs?

Nikwax and ReviveX are the only two that I've heard of lately.

In the old days, about two generations back in Goretex, we would never think of spraying any of this crap on our Goretex rain shell parkas.

–B.G.–

Bob, re:
'So, let me ask the question again. What is the best waterproofing treatment for one Goretex rain shell and one Pertex rain shell?' AND,
'The Pertex wouldn't even last that long and it would be saturated.'

For the GTX shell, the short answer is that there isn't any. To explain: Please note the distinction between waterproof and water repellent. Waterproofing increases the water resistance, not repellence, to a point where water will not penetrate in ordinary use, so is termed waterproof. Water repellence does not do that, but repels water on the surface of the fabric so that is beads up and falls off; thus, preventing water from 'wetting out' the fabric and blocking vapor transmission.

If the GTX rain shell is leaking, the treatment underneath the fabric is no longer waterproof. You could treat the exterior of the garment to be waterproof, but then it would no longer 'breathe,' or allow water vapor to exit, and would be very uncomfortable, unless you are standing around and not exerting, and even then things can get very clammy. So it is probably time to replace the garment. But as Roger suggests, the GTX layer could be failing because it has been contaminated with oils or other substances that destroy the water resistance of the GTX, in which case a couple washings with non detergent soap like Atsko Sportwash might bring it back to life. In that case, it might then be worth it to use a Durable Water Repellent, not resistant, spray on the outer. But after 15 years, I'm betting not.

Pertex also makes waterproof breathable, or WPB materials, but based your report of quick saturation, I'm betting this is not one of them. Even if it were, I've tried one of them on a RAB product and was not impressed. You might be able to waterproof the Pertex using a PU coating product, like McNett TentSure, but it might or might not be compatible with whatever treatment the Pertex received, and again, you would still be left with a non-breathable garment.

So if you want a good WPB rain shell, you'll need to buy one. There are some excellent test articles circa 2011-2012 on BPL on WPB rain shells, and Alan Dixon's earlier article on BPL is very helpful to obtain general knowledge about them. If you email me at scfhome@worldpath.net, I'll send you all the links. My own personal favorite is the Patagonia M-10, around $250 when discounted. The DWR on mine is so good, water doesn't just bead on it, it bounces off and you can't get water to sit on it nohow. But read the articles, make some choices, and find the best deals before warm weather approaches in the US of A and the good sales disappear.

Comfort, Grangwers, Nikwax, Storm – sound like some sort of mandatory minorities support action.

They way they have mixed the proofing agents makes me very doubtful of their knowledge or qualifications.

That they were only getting 30 miles … is utterly meaningless. 30 miles of WHAT?

Ignore.

Cheers

Eric, does that chart mean 30 miles of hiking with a pack on?

Hi Bob

> The Goretex label specifically said to wash it in ordinary powdered detergent and
> tumble dry it warm.
That might work when the jacket is new and the fluorocarbon DWR layer was still quite thick. Even so, I think the Gore advice was just plain bad.

> Goretex had some PTFE components,
Oh yeah, the fabled Gore PTFE waterproof membrane. What they don't tell you is that the real waterproof layer in Gore fabric is … a thin layer of PU! Just like every other PU coating. Straight PTFE is what they started with, but it was a disaster in the field.

> What is the best waterproofing treatment for one Goretex rain shell and one Pertex
> rain shell?

OK, my advice. Wash very thoroughly in Atso Sports Wash once or even twice. Get ALL the dirt and ALL the laundry detergent off. You may need to clean your washing machine out first: it will be contaminated. Then treat garments with Atsko fluorocarbon DWR ('Waterguard' I think) and tumble or iron dry.

I have also used Revivex, but I prefer Waterguard. MY preference.

Cheers

Roger, you did not mention Nikwax anything.

Yes, Gore has gone through several different generations of membrane, and it can be difficult to tell exactly where each garment came from.

–B.G.–

Hi Bob

> you did not mention Nikwax anything.
True.

The problem is that Nikwax is a rather strange (and probably unique) combination of wax and EVA. I believe it will adhere quite well to cotton and leather, and works moderately well on them. I would imagine it also probably works fairly well on Paramo fabrics. These are all rather 'English' and suitable for English weather: light continuous drizzle, only rarely getting heavier.

But the problem is that the wax is incompatible with fluorocarbon DWR treatments. And if you buy a nylon fabric from an Asian mill with a DWR treatment, that treatment will be fluorocarbon. I am not aware of any fabrics from Asia which use Nikwax. (OK, someone will promptly demonstrate my ignorance after that comment!) Unless of course you are buying a coated fabric: then you will have a choice of silicone and/or PU polymer blend. If the PU-coated fabric has a DWR, it will again be fluorocarbon.

Nikwax do claim that you can put Nikwax over a fluorocarbon treatment – like on a Goretex jacket. OK, I imagine they know what they are talking about. But I doubt you can then put fluoroDWR over Nikwax. I suspect it simply won't (can't) bond. If you want to go totally Nikwax, that may be OK.

HTH
Cheers

The study comes from the English outdoor magazine 'Trail' which explains the selection. Are they knowlegable ? Well, you would exspect that, but who knows.

I haven't used any treatments like this for 30-35 years since the days of Scotchgard spray. Now people around here seem to mention ReviveX spray or else Nikwax wash-in. That may be just from immediate availability in the stores.

So now I have to decide something. Or else I can take the clean Goretex out for another rainy day test.

Back around 1980, I bought one of the first of generation two Goretex rain shells. On that stuff, we were warned to wash it only with Ivory Snow flakes and water, then rinse it a couple of times. If the membrane got contaminated, we had to soak it all in denatured alcohol, then rinse it again a couple of times. That was a lot of hassle.

The newer Goretex is supposed to need less care.

–B.G.–

"The problem is that Nikwax is a rather strange (and probably unique) combination of wax and EVA. I believe it will adhere quite well to cotton and leather, and works moderately well on them."

Yes, last year I had some new boots that needed some waterproofing, so I used some Nikwax boot treatment, and it seemed to do OK on the synthetic leather.

–B.G.–

in addition to whuddah i posted above

if you ask dead bird or westcomb folks that design and build the things in hongcouvah … theyll tell you to use grangers

most flurocarbon DWRs will probably work more or less the same … but grangers is the top tested brand

in fact westcomb gives out free packs of grangers with their jackets at their factory sales here

but really u should just leverage yr good ole yankee dollah to buy some cheap maple syrup dollahs and come up to canuckistan to buy a dead bird

;)

"if you ask dead bird or westcomb folks that design and build the things in hongcouvah … theyll tell you to use grangers"
Funny enough, on the website of dead bird, they mention 'a Nu water repellant, specially formulated with Revivex'. But no explanation of what makes it special.

"But no explanation of what makes it special."

Marketing.

–B.G.–

they sell the grangers in their factory outlet … which is in the same building as their north vancouver factory …

they might be making their own sprays these days, but they arent selling it in their factory store … for over a decade they used grangers and still recommend it as one of the DWR sprays to use

heres a vid that likely came before their "proprietary" brand … they use grangers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4N6ZuKTZ_c

i suspect they are going towards "special" sprays for marketing purposes … theres good money to be made after all … as well as sucking in consumer with the belief that a branded product is "better", and that you can charge a premium for

;)

Eric, dead birds, yankee dollah, maple syrup dollah, hongcouvah, canuckistan, …

It's all tongue-twisting.

–B.G.–

oh, I know. At a certain time, they included a sample of Grangers in a pocket of every of their GTX-jackets. Last week, I suddenly saw on their website that they now worked together with Revivex. So I saw this as just funny. :-)