talk to me about cuben hybrid packs

As far as I can tell, if you already have xpac there isn't much to be gained by moving to CH

The science guys will be in shortly

I think in a nutshell CH is lighter but not as abrasion resistant. Prolly depends on the deniers being compared but if all is even comparison-wise I think this holds true.

I think this guy does a good review of a ZPacks Arc Blast he used for an AT thru-hike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRXOxs9a5Y

I had a ZPacks Arc Blast that was pretty sweet but worried about scrapes against desert thorns. Sold it and expanded my fleet of Dyneema grid Zimmerbuilt packs of various sizes instead, … I could see a cuben hybrid on a groomed long trail though.

I've owned four different packs made from hybrid cuben. I'm a big fan. With that said, if you compare it to Xpac fabrics it will usually come in 2nd place IMO. It's only real advantage to me is that it will not soak up any water when raining whereas the Xpacs with the nylon face will(which is why I like HC) Other than that, I think Xpac will win in most categories if you compare similar fabrics.

Ryan

It is easy to understand why there aren't many long term usage reports. Cuben hybrid fabrics haven't been on the market for that long.

I was concerned when I read about bear canister wear-thru, but then I read more. It seems that most of those cases had to do with wear of the fabric around frame portions. I didn't need to worry about that since mine has no frame.

–B.G.–

I've been using a Porter 2400 (mostly for winter trips) and it has held up well, but I used silnet to reinforce high wear areas (stitching at top of straps, etc.) I know HMG reinforces the bottom of their packs with 150 denier CH material nowadays. They'll also make a 150 denier pack for you for a small additional fee, if you're worried about durability. Katabatic gear also makes excellent packs with both cuben hybrid and more durable fabrics.

If you're mostly on trail with minimal offtrail/bushwacking, I'd say a cuben hybrid pack would work well if taken care of. If you're going to be off trail or scraping around on granite or sandstone, I'd recommend a burlier fabric.

All in all, If I had a pack I liked made from xpac, I probably wouldn't spend the money for cuben.

I used a HMG 3400 Porter, standard white flavor, this summer and fall in the Sierra on numerous trips and it's still in good shape. Mostly on trail, but some xcountry, up and over class 2-3 passes (Whitebark, Kuna Crest, McCabe), and what not. Generally at or above treeline where life is mostly on granite. Overall the pack looks nasty, but otherwise no problems. The roll top is starting to get a little fuzziness to it and the bottom has some scrapes, but nothing has penetrated the pack yet. All of the seams are fine. Some of the taping on the interior has peeled, mostly around the top back side seams. If it continues I may redo the taping myself. I expect to get many more years out of the pack and at this point don't see any durability problems.

Cuben aside, not all cuben packs are equal nor intended to be….. so that is another layer to think about …. My Arc Blast (primary pack for last couple of years until recently) weighs half as much as my ULA Circuit or HMG Windrider, but the trade off is that the Arc is way more fragile (underbuilt) and in some ways less functional as such. After breaking hardware on the Arc and having to baby it, it's really nice to have the HMG or ULA (both overbuilt by comparison) out and not have to think twice about how I handle the pack or whether or not I'm being gentle enough with it or wondering if I'm going to break something again….. The point being that it's not all apples to apples when comparing "cuben hybrid packs" ….there can be a huge difference in durabilty depending on the pack build and build style (over built, under built or in between) …. hope this helps in some way!

I think Trace's point is well taken, not all hybrid packs are created equal. I now have 3 hybrid cuben packs; two Zimmerbuilts and an HMG Porter 4400. Both my Zimmerbuilts, a Quickstep and a bigger, slightly beefier 2800 cu in version of the Quickstep, are light, but the construction and hardware are much beefier then the Zpacks stuff. In this lower volume/weight, gram/ounce counting category of frameless packs, the advantages of hybrid cuben (water resistance, toughness compared to Sil, light weight) seem to out weight the disadvantages (high cost, less durable then Xpac/Dyneema).

My take away from spending way too much time over thinking this, is that cuben hybrid is good for the smaller, lighter frameless end of the pack scale and into the mid-sized frameless packs, but begins to lose its relative advantages of weight/strength as the packs get larger, and suspensions, frame sheets, and added durability for heavy loads becomes more important. For example, a lot of the ULA stuff in hybrid cuben still seems quite heavy, as do a lot of the smaller volume HMG offerings. 3 ounces of difference for a smaller volume, lighter weight frameless pack means a lot more then 3 ounces does in much larger, beefier pack with a suspension.

However, my HMG Porter 4400 is heavy, quite beefy, and huge, but also comparatively light for a pack of its size and capabilities. I still can't explain how the Porter 4400 seems to hit a real sweet spot in its size to weight ratio and capabilites, but it does. It is so much lighter then so many packs with roughly similar volumes and capabilities and is so well reviewed and liked, by myself included, that there is some great designer slight of hand going on.

I strongly suggest spending hours over researching, over analyzing, over thinking and over spending. This is my approach, and it has worked for me. For awhile. I until I find something new to over research, over analyze, over think and over spend on. Right now that is winter backpacking and back country skiing. For those dying to know, the Kom ski from Altai, coupled with boots from Goodwill and a pair of free RIva 2 bindings have won out. I just need to get some stuff on Gear Swap to fund the skis. The circle of life continues….

PS – you need to find some way to get Dan Durston to chime in on hybrid cuben, his knowledge borders on unnerving.

i've read several of Dan Durston's comparisons and they are very, very helpful! If he has anything new to offer – Dan, where are you??

What I seem to see/read/feel at this point is that sure, it's great material as long as you don't plan on dragging across granite or carrying heavy things with sharp edges (that would be YOU, David Chenault…) but whether or not it's worth it over Xpac seems to be another story.

The Xpac performs really nicely, is also waterproof, and while twice the fabric weight, over the course of a pack only amounts to 1-2 oz difference.

I'm not really seeing any benefit of the cuben hybrid over Xpac for a pack in the 25 oz range. Since HMG and Zpacks have had their packs out for a few years now I was hoping for some longer-term thoughts, but as it stands I'm not sure it's at all worth it to me to give it a try.

"I strongly suggest spending hours over researching, over analyzing, over thinking and over spending. This is my approach…" Yes Edward, mine as well. Isn't it fun??

Just something about the XPAC-fabric:
1) there's now also X-21 (like VX-21 but with a thicker film and without the backer) which weights 4,4 oz/yd².
2) there's no standard XPAC-fabric with a facefabric between 70D and 210D.

Its waterproof
Its super easy to repair with tape, any kind in a pinch
Its durable and abrasion resistant enough to use with care
No sign of any seam pulling or hole enlargement on my arc blast.

I bought the arc blast for water resistance primarily, but I have to say it carries amazingly well up to 25lb. I have a 31" waist, and the simple hipbelt works better for me than my circuits.

I dont consider any gear a lifetime investment. So if it lasts a reasonable amount of time and does what I ask it to do, Im happy. I find the cuben hybrid does that.