Scrambling Boot recommendation needed

Simple. Ask the instructor or the class organization. If they are putting out general requirements that are not clear, then ask for a specific recommendation.

–B.G.–

Why the hell would you want stiff boots for scrambling? I've seen people fail to grip the simplest foot holds because their shoes were too stiff. I would seriously question the competence of an instructor who puts out that requirement unless the route actually required crampons.

La Sportiva Boulder X Mid

Salewa Mountain Trainer Mid

http://www.salewa.us/product/alpine+approach/ms-mtn-trainer-mid-gtx-1

Thanks for the responses.

If I bag the crampon idea and just go with the best, most comfortable scramble boot out there; what would it be?

BTW I hate the thought of blisters and haven't had one in years. I don't want to start dealing with them now.

fwiw, I use trail runners 95% of the time now. Scrambling in the Sierras is generally fine in lighter shoes.

I revert to boots occasionally for situations like cross-country in the Grand Canyon, where you're dealing with crumbling cliffs and steep loose slopes covered in talus, scree, rubble – there a boot with ankle protection, and a good sole with an edge can be far better. I like the Salewas for that. It's designed to be comfortable for normal hiking (it's supportive, but not "stiff"), but the sole has rigid square edges, and a flat smooth pad at at toe suitable for basic climbing. It's also light for the amount of protection it gives.

I think the Salewa's features are absolutely ideal for what you want to do. But, like all shoe & boot threads…. ultimately, it's not about features. The most important thing is whether the last is the right shape to fit your foot comfortably. You're always going to want to buy the shoe that fits you better, over the one that has great reviews for "features".

I don't know if they still do it, but Salewa used to have a gimmicky "no blisters guarantee" that would allow you to return them.

if yr scrambling in the PNW during spring and winter you likely want something bit sturdier than trail runners

steep snow, moderate angle ice, steep scree, wet rocks with snow/ice, etc … theyre all on the table

theres been several fatalities up here where folks may not have had the proper gear even in good conditions

now before folks go off on "killian jornet uses trail runners and hes fine" … ill retort that alex honnold doesnt use a rope on many climbs and hes also fine … unless you are well experienced (where you dont need a course), i suggest taking a conservative approach to the gear … plenty of top athletes and experienced folks do things that may be "unsafe" for other folks

i use the hyper GTX myself …

http://www.backcountry.com/la-sportiva-hyper-mid-gtx-hiking-boot-mens

if conditions are serious with a lot of snow and ice, a proper mountaineering boot might be called for

dont underestimate the class scrambling/hiking in the PNW in the shoulder seasons and winter … especially if its around the coastal BC mountains

North Shore Rescue up here recently had to rescue two folks who were searching for their friend (who remains unfound) … this is the terrain they got rescued on

http://www.northshorerescue.com/2015/01/09/please-do-not-put-yourself-at-risk/

to see more of the winter terrain they are searching go here … im sure most would agree its not exactly trail runner territory except for the most fit or experienced, and perhaps not even then

http://www.northshorerescue.com/2015/01/15/thank-you-letter-liang-jin-leons-parents/

even relatively "easy" walks can turn pretty nasty if less than good conditions, especially if one gets off route

The group of four women in their early 20s and a 10-year-old boy, had planned to hike to Dog Mountain, a relatively easy five-kilometre trail in summer conditions.

“I think they were lulled into a false sense of security where it’s almost spring-like conditions in the city here, but up there, the margin for error is a lot less in the winter,” Pope said. “A slip and fall in that steep terrain could definitely have caused injury. Although it’s been a mild winter and we don’t have a lot of snow up there, we’re still dealing with slippery conditions. You’ve got early darkness to contend with and weather on Seymour is notoriously variable.”

http://www.nsnews.com/news/north-shore-rescue-saves-5-from-suicide-bluffs-1.1752162

;)

> Lightweight hiking boots and trail running shoes are not allowed on course field
> trips and club scrambles. They have to be over the ankle.
Change instructor or club. These ones are incompetent. Or just dinosaurs.

Cheers
PS: Mont Blanc has been climbed in joggers and crampons.

+1 to Caffin's comment. Way too inflexible and rigid (like the boots they require)

"Change instructor or club. These ones are incompetent. Or just dinosaurs."

I suspect you are most likely right, that they are dinosaurs.
But we don't have all the information here – there are certainly some kinds of terrain where boots are far safer.

im just going to post these 2 rescued from this year alone that happened around the vancouver area …

what folks wear is up to them … remember just because someone can climb something in runners, or without a rope, or any protective gear doesnt mean YOU can do it especially if you arent experienced enough

The men set out mid-morning Thursday with the goal of hiking to the mountain summit in Golden Ears Provincial Park over a two- day period.

Two of them had casual hiking shoes, while the other was only outfitted with runners – which would have made climbing to the summit “not only difficult but potentially very dangerous,” Laing said.

http://www.mrtimes.com/news/chopper-plucks-hikers-from-maple-ridge-mountain-1.1748590

A hiker who got lost above the snow line in the Fraser Valley is telling his story so that others don’t repeat his mistakes.

“We needed these microspikes on our shoes to make it up the icy sections of the trail, and all this fella had on was running shoes,” says Doug Fraser of Chilliwack Search and Rescue.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1779756/hiker-tells-chilliwack-search-rescue-thank-you-for-saving-my-life/

here a message from one of the busiest rescue groups in the canadian rockies …

now what folks wear is up to them … im not saying you always need big heavy boots, but then conversely there are times when light trail runners would not be adequate for your "average" BPLer

be aware of what you DONT know …

the local SAR folks are probably all old dinos anyways …

just as a note … in 2 of the accident reports i posted the hikers are basically an hour or two away from metro vancouver .. basically you could perish while looking at the city lights at night ….

"Appropriate footwear" is a stupid statement. Everyone is different. I hike in real thin minimalist shoes and feel safe on any terrain with them. Actually, the worse the terrain the more happy I am to have shoes that allow preconception and my feet to conform to surfaces.

And then I have a hiking friend who has done light shoes but found that he prefers heavy boots.

Some people need supportive footwear and cushioning, I know from experience that I need none of that.

I sell hiking footwear and people get annoyed with me when I show them two completely different types of footwear and I tell them that I don't know which one will work best for them personally, they have to figure that out themselves based on their needs and past experiences.
If they are inexperienced and have no idea what they need, I usually try to get them in some salamon trail runners.

Ice and snow… I have no experience with that.

When I read "scrambling" I think of rock scrambling, like boulder hopping and short climbs.

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For snow and scree, they're great. For kicking steps, not just into snow but frozen dirt or vegetation they go well. And if you're going to move onto trips where stiff boots are used, getting a headstart in climbing and scrambling in b2/b3 boots is a good idea.

I wouldn't instantly dismiss the instructors rules, for all we know last season they had an abundance of ankle related accidents, or they're trying to prepare people for future things. You could ask and have a conversation about rational of that requirement – people tend to make exceptions for the right people. Re crampon fit, I've started taking my crampons in to the store to try on with the shoes.

(Every now and again I go rockclimbing or indoor climbing in my b2s. If I recall correctly to be a NZ mountain guide you have to be able to lead 14s in boots.)

Thanks for the discussion. I would probably agree that the club might be a little archaic in some of their attitudes but I also see Eric’s points about when and where the right shoe/boot is applicable.
Here are a few pictures from last year’s classes that show what kind of scrambling we might encounter. I thought about broaching the approach shoe idea to see where that gets me.

Hi Tad

Looking at the first photo: yes, I would consider travelling that route in joggers, but maybe not in boots.

However, going on that first photo, I would not be very happy with the instructors leading that class. In fact, I would be very, very UNhappy.

What gets me very upset is that this is a 'class', so I have to assume these people are not all that skilled or experienced, AND they are carrying quite large packs (which always throw your balance off), AND the rock does not look 100% solid, AND they are all unroped. If I had a class in that country they would all be roped and belayed.

It is not just a question of whether they are safe or not in that situation; it is also a question of what sort of mind-set you are teaching them. That looks extremely irresponsible imho.

Frankly, SHEESH!

Cheers

It's always hard to tell from one photo, but the terrain at the top looks like some solid Class 3. I'd be more concerned about having the right sort of sole than about the shoe/boot thing. I think you're into territory where you want a sole suitable for basic climbing moves. An approach shoe seems like a wise choice to me.

actually just by looking at the first pic … i probably wouldnt rope up either … it looks like choss plain and simple …

unless you actually have solid gear and belays a rope can be more dangerous as if you fall itll drag everyone else off

also note that on a traverse a rope may not do anything if you dont plae gear at regular intervals … i see folk think they are safe on a traverse with no pro just because they have a rope … even with a belay theyll take a massive swing smack into the rock at the end of a large pendulum and floss off rocks on everyone below

the simple matter of the fact is that you cant fall while scrambling/climbing unless you have solid gear and bomber belays … and even then the rope only prevents you from possibly tumbling to your death … its not to prevent you from getting hurt as youll likely smack a ledge or feature

heres a recent accident around vancouver where a falling climber dragged their 2 other partners to their deaths as they were likely roped up without any/or poor protection … one of my partners was friends with one of those who perished and a few months ago they did the same thing up another mountain, rope but no gear placed … he now realizes how lucky he is that neither fell

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/stephanie-grothe-elena-cernicka-neil-mackenzie-identified-as-joffre-peak-climbing-victims-1.2899722

as to the packs … other than the big one in the foreground, the other ones looks like yr standard 40L or so alpine packs … which any climber worth their salt should easily be able to climb 4th/easy 5th class in even if its decently loaded

to be blunt … folks need to not depend on ropes for moderate scrambling/easy climbing if theres no/little pro, they simply cant fall … and they need to learn how to climb with 30-50L packs on easy ground

as ralph said yr getting into approach shoe/boot territory in the upper pic … or light mountaineering boots …. just because of the sticky climbing rubber

as a reference … this is considered very popular scramble in the vancouver/squamish area (photo not mine)

someone fell and died on it last year

Eric hit the nail on the head – no place for a rope, to much loose rock and no place to anchor. If you don't have a solid anchor you are just ensuring that the entire party goes when one person falls.

I don't know why I am so surprised as it seems to happen here a lot, someone asks for some advice on a piece of gear and instead of giving solid thoughtful answers people spout off about all sorts of tangential issues.

As for footwear. I would invest in a pair of lightweight mountaineering boots. If you are taking this class in preparation for a climbing class later you will need the boots anyway, and you will want to learn how to edge and climb in them. examples would b the ever popular La Sportiva Trango Evo S, the Scarpa Charmoz or something similar. These will accept crampons, are stiff enough for moderate alpine ice routes, work well on rock when you learn how to use them, if properly fitted can be used for longer approaches and are reasonably light. They are overkill for scrambling, but are great all around boots and you will need something similar when you take a climbing course. There is a reason nearly every alpine climber in the PNW owns a pair of something similar.

Make sure the boots fit very well! The fit of the boots will be more important than any small differences between them.

James, I’m reluctant to get a pair of Trango because I already have a pair of Asolo Expert GV for glacier work. They are quite stiff and would eat my feet up when used for normal trail hiking.
I was hoping there was a milder boot that would work. I think the approach shoe in a Mid might work out (I’ll ask); they seemed to be to be the best for the general conditions.
Eric, all the pictures you have posted look like they came out of the “last years” class pictures, so you seem to have a grasp of the conditions. Do you have any experience with the La Sportiva Wildcats? If so how is the fit compared to the Hypers? I know they are made from a different last but how similar is the fit (if you know)?

tad … no idea i use inov terrocs and guide tennies for normal stuff …

the only way is to know is to try em on … fortunately several places with free return shipping sell the hyper gtx mid

for reference i wear 8.5 USM in the terrocs, 8 USM in the guide tennie and 40.5 in the hyper mid

try asking sportiva they should have a pretty good idea of their sizing

one note is that if youre going to be spending significant time doing ropework on snow/ice (standing aroun for hours without moving) is that youll want a GTX or other WPB boot

the goretex "approach boot" is a rare breed … specifically one that performs well on rock and is not too heavy for trail use, and you can use in a bit of snow/ice …

but its probably the closest thing to what yr looking for …. think of it as between an approach shoe and a light mountaineering boot

;)

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Thanks rOg, I wear a 45.5 Wildcat so I guess I'll try the 45's and 45.5. At least now I have something to start with

I did not realize you already had a good mountaineering boot.

Check and see how much snow work you will be doing. PNW snow is incredibly abrasive, My daughter destroyed an expensive pair of approach shoes a couple of years ago when she wore them into a climb on spring.

You might be better off with a lightweight mountaineering boot or a mid to heavyweight hiker depending on the climbs.

Footwear for climbing is always a tough one, especially in the PNW! No one shoe is going to do it all. I picked up a pair of the Addidas Terex approach shoes this year which I am hoping will hold up to some snow use. time will tell.

My gear room is full of boots and shoes!

Contrary to the ranting opinions of some folks here who most likely do not have any experience in our mountains – it is quite possible that the course instructors actually do know what they are talking about!