150 D Cuben Hybrid Material vs. Airline Baggage Handlers and Daily Off Trail Travel

how DOES the 50d material do on the trail? you say you have extended experience with it….

I'm considering the new Katabatic Helios, and it's made of 50d and I'm a little wary of that. I'm NOT a bushwhacking kind of gal, but I do like hiking the sierra and that means GRANITE.

Any thoughts??

As for your pack – consider using Xpac – I have a zimmerbuilt made of that and it's great stuff…probably my favorite actually.

Every major airport has large heavy duty plastic bags meant for strollers, ask for one at the check in and put your pack in it.

Jennifer: I have a Zpacks frameless blast pack that I have had for close to a 1000 miles on trail, including 2 JMT thru hikes, and it is in great shape. The majority of the those miles have been in Sierra granite too. It does have some scoffs on the bottom and side pockets but nothing to weaken the pack. I expect to get another 1000 miles from that pack. But like I mentioned in the original post, I am extremely careful with gear. These packs are too expensive to just beat up and toss them around.

I have been hesitant to get something with xpac. I have had multiple dyneema packs and know how they hold up. I guess I will have to research xpac material a little more. How waterproof would you say xpac is? The pack I am looking to get will need to handle Pacific NW and New Zealand type conditions (wet and soggie for extended periods).

Mike: I wasn't aware that airports would bag a checked pack. I haven't had to check a bag when flying for a long time.

The bag may take care of US flights, but what about international flights? I guess I could save the bag after reaching my destination.

What about other modes of travel? Would you feel comfortable strapping a porter down on a bus and schlepping it around towns for a week?

What is luggage typically made of 330d-500d nylon? I'm guessing here, never really looked into it. I've seen some pretty beat up luggage.

Ryan

Yeah, that is my concern. I would hate to have my pack get wrecked but I would also hate to carry around, and purchase, a duffle bag to stash my gear, including my pack, just so it is protected.

Being that I already have a fair amount of gear, I am trying to minimize the crap that I have to carry around. I guess I could go with a more robust pack but the thought of 5 lbs of pack weight alone makes me feel ill. I also want to be able to use the pack for backpacking closer to home as well and something like the porter would get used. Compared to something way heavier that would end up sitting in the gear closet for many moons before seeing the light of day again.

my understanding is that Xpac and cuben are just about the same in terms of both durability and waterproofness…just that the Xpac is far cheaper.

My zimmerbuilt has been in a serious downpour for about 2 straight hours (i mean torrential) and my stuff inside was dry once I got in my tent and opened it up. Not sure about dunking it in a stream tho, because I have NOT seam sealed the stitches. But I'm pretty sure that would be the case for either one.

Chris talked me into the Xpac and I've not at all regretted it – and I'm working on my own pack as well and I'll use Xpac in the final version.

There are some threads on here about using Xpac as a pack material and frankly I'm surprised it's not more common in more mass-produced packs.

I think Dimension Polyant fabrics are a tad more durable than hybrid Cuben, especially when it comes to seam self repair.

See Dave C’s article and his most recent comments in the article forum posts here:

here

Also, check out Dan’s comments on the fabrics in this thread:

here

I’ll update these later so you can click a link.

*Edited for links

I think most airports use computer-managed baggage handling systems these days, so it's not necessarily the human baggage-handlers you have to worry about. We had a pretty burley suitcase get mauled on a trip to Costa Rica a few years ago; the bag itself was shredded and the few things they managed to salvage had black grease stains on it.

I fly with various "gear" 4-5 times a year and I have a very robust wheeled duffel that I use. It's actually an old Samsonite model that they don't seem to make anymore; mine has outlasted a similar LL Bean duffel, as well as several other no-name cheap (like Target, Walmart) ones. It's about 30" long, which comfortably accommodates collapsed hiking poles and I know from long experience that it will weigh right around 40lb when packed full. (Oversize/weight luggage fees will kill you at the airport.)

Thank you everyone for the great info. I will take a further look into Xpac material since it seems like if I go the custom route this may be a better option than dyneema for my specific needs.

But from what I am hearing, is that any checked bag, for airport travel, is really at your own risk regardless of type of bag or material. I'm sure destroyed bags are not that common of an occurrence but being that I get the chance to do a trip that has been in the planning stages for years, it may be worth taking the extra precautions so my gear is not destroyed. My UL philosophy is really taking a beating here…taking "extra bags" and "just in case"…blasphemy!!!

You can also look at Katabatic for packs that use Dimension Polyant.

Artemis 55

V40 with a 420D nylon face. I have a ruck made of VX40 and I would not be the least bit concerned with checking it on an airline.

Edit – Link problems

I think you are dead-on with the idea that anything, regardless of material, can be destroyed during air travel. I travel a lot for my job and have done a ton of research when buying suitcases. Bottom line for me was that you can find stories of any brand/type of luggage being destroyed, no matter how expensive/bomber. My personal experience was of having the fabric tear out near a zipper on a $300+ dollar Briggs and Riley bag after around 5 flights. This was made of far tougher nylon than any backpacking gear I have ever seen, short of military-style stuff. Luckily it had a lifetime warranty.

I think getting/making some sort of overbag would be the best way to prevent a checked backpack from being damaged. Basically a sacrificial layer over the more fragile fabric. Something like a big roll-top bag made of cordura would prevent abrasion and snagging on the backpack itself. Obviously crushing you can't really prevent without some sort of hard shell or crate.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=65506

>> UL philosophy is really taking a beating here…taking "extra bags" and "just in case"…blasphemy!!!

IMO, using appropriate luggage for airport/mass transit travel where other people and machines are handling your belongings out of your sight isn't a "just in case" scenerio. It's common sense. UL philosophy is ultimately about using common sense, again my opinion.

Sumi: That is a good point. It probably just isn't worth risking it to things that are out of my control. However, in general, I am a one bag kinda travel person. This just may be a case where I take more than I want and deal with it to avoid ruining my trip.

Thanks for the replies everyone, this is all very helpful. Still curious if there is anyone with experience using a porter as a general travel bag and how it has held up. All I have found are reports from pack rafting and backpacking, all of which seem pretty positive in terms of overall durability.

Having worked on the ramp as a fueler at BDL I can tell you that I will NEVER check my really important gear in anything short of bullet proof containers. That, as others have mentioned, is usually older hard sided luggage that you can usually get at tag sales for a couple dollars. Also FWIW I recommend something with 4 wheels if possible.

The real punishment comes when shleping the luggage aboard the belly of the plane. If the luggage has wheels the handlers can shove it forward on the wheels to one an other. If not it just gets thrown forward. Theft is also an issue to consider although its probably less rampant. We lock our luggage and security is usually very helpful in sending it through as we stand there. If there is a problem we can open it right then and there for them. Having said all this we carry on our packs with the expensive must haves and don't let them out of our sight. After all the big bucks are spent getting there. No sense risking the trip to baggage handlers. YMMV.

I still cringe when I think of all the packages I saw dropped off the conveyor of the UPS DC8 that I fueled every morning years ago. Lots of electronics packaging, computers and such. A DC8 hatch is quite high off the ground, not like a 727 or similar.

jimmyb

I would never even think of checking a bag that was made of cuben hybrid material.

When I check a cheap duffle bag, I line the inside with cardboard. That protects the contents better, and it seems to allow the bag to move over the conveyor belts without getting snagged.

–B.G.–

When checking baggage I use a roller duffel to hold my backpack (Osprey 75L Volt) and other items that I don’t need on the trail. I have had this one for years now and it has held up well:

Duffel

It looks like that one is no longer being made, this one looks to be the new version:

It is my understanding that in the case of luggage damaged in transit, airlines are responsible for the replacement of the contents, NOT the luggage itself. If you check the backpack then damage to it would be your responsibility. This is why companies like Osprey created the Airporter LZ (I am not endorsing this product, just pointing it out).

I personally pack all my gear, and the (empty) backpack, in a cheap, hard plastic suitcase that will survive being bashed about. All my gear, including the pack, are thus protected AND insured.

It is a bitch to deal with that suitcase at the destination…but WAY less of a bitch than having the trip impacted by damaged gear.

I so wish US airports had lockers like European train stations. wouldn't that be awesome?!!

I have used a number of solutions – in lots of markets and cheap luggage shops you can get huge bags that are made from some kind of woven thing that usually looks like a red and white checked tarp made into a bag. They are often used at borders and by people on very long trips to see family or coming back to work after seeing family. They are filled with all kinds of stuff and get chucked into the hold. Last year I put my very precious pack wrapped it in bubble wrap and put it in one of these bags. I tied the handles together. And labelled it, a lot. At the far end , out it came, I dumped the bubble wrap and gave the empty bag to someone leaving the airport with their family. They were glad I was glad. And of course I did the same in reverse. The huge shopping bags cost about £1 for a pack of three. I have never failed to find one and I no longer worry about my bag. The only thing that doesn't go into the hold are any electronics. I'm not totally daft.

>> It is my understanding that in the case of luggage damaged in transit, airlines are responsible for the replacement of the contents, NOT the luggage itself.

That's dependent on the specific airline's policy. When my luggage was damaged, they certainly paid for the replacement. In fact, they packed up whatever they could salvage in a generic cheap suitcase and had it couriered to where we were in Costa Rica, and told us that it was ours to keep. They also paid for a replacement bag in full.

"generic cheap suitcase"

That was probably one that had been liberated from a previous passenger.

–B.G.–

Waterproofness
Initially both Xpac and cuben based fabrics are going to be extremely waterproof. Both materials use a layer of plastic (rather than a fail prone coating) so no water is getting inside except through seams or damage to the plastic. In the long term, the Xpac variants that have a protective layer of nylon on both sides of the plastic are likely to retain their waterproofness better than unprotected Xpac or hybrid cuben (with exposed plastic on the inside) but ample field usage indicates that all of these fabrics are extremely waterproof in the long term, and the most relevant concern is how the seams are deal with. Fewer seams is good and taped seams are better than seam sealed seams.

Durability
Hybrid cuben uses a woven polyester face fabric in varying weights (50D or 150D usually) and it has reinforcing fibers glued in between the polyester and plastic layers. These fibers are what makes hybrid cuben expensive, but they aren't that helpful in an application like a pack because the main durability concerns with a back are abrasion and stitch hole elongation, neither of which these fibers help with. So the fibers slow tears from continuing, but overall their contribution to durability is minor since their outright tear strength isn't needed and their non-woven nature is less effective at slowing hole propagation.

Xpac is offered with a huge range of outer woven face fabrics (70D to 1000D as I recall) and it can be purchased with or without an inner nylon layer, and with or without X reinforcements (which are of little value). Despite lacking the grid of Dyneema strands commonly seen in the familiar 210D DyneemaX fabrics (which are mostly nylon), the durability of Xpac is pretty similar to DyneemaX of similar denier. 70D requires babying, 210D is a good all around weight, 400D is good for abusive situations, higher still for canyoneering.

The polyester fabric used in hybrid cuben has a really slippery feel to it, and it's probably more durable for the denier than Xpacs nylon. I would estimate 150D cuben is similar to something like 210D nylon used by Xpac (ie. VX21). An Xpac fabric like VX40 (400D) is going to be more durable and at least as waterproof, but also heavier.

Conclusion
Both fabrics are truly waterproof for super soggy conditions provided the seams are dealt with. The non-woven dyneema fibers used in hybrid cuben add a lot to the cost but not substantially to the durability in a pack application. A moderately higher denier of Xpac is going to offer similar durability and overall functionality at a lower price. Hybrid cuben is a good fabric, but Xpac offers a lot more versions to suit a wider range of applications.

50D hybrid cuben is good on well established trails if cared for. It will get eaten up by bushwacking and granite.
150D hybrid cuben only needs intentional care in potentially abusive situations (i.e. climbing, airplanes).