Do Electronics Really Belong in the Wilderness ? !

Hi Art,
Can you define what you mean by " do they really belong" ? Because any answer and discussion really hinges on what that means. It seems wide open to a number of interpretations and maybe that was intentional.

To be honest, this seems much like the fastpacking thread (or at least, since it's new, to evolve or devolve the same way). The 'do electronics belong in the wilderness' is really the secondary question, as many of this type usually are. The real question is the second you ask – why do you go out there anyway?

I think this is where many assumptions are made based on our own reasons for backpacking. So, to me, the question isn't whether they belong – that's really unanswerable. It's whether they fit in to, have a place in, the experience you're hoping to have when you backpack.

I backpack to enjoy myself in a setting I also enjoy, and almost always with others. I like being outside and I like sharing some outside time with friends. I don't backpack to concentrate on the beauty of nature – the beauty of nature is an appreciated side benefit of being outside. I don't go for the solitude – I like being with others (I get enough solitude in my normal, suburban life). I do like to get away from the 'madding crowds,' probably due to living near a metropolis when, at heart, I'm a small town boy. But I'm not looking to shed or shred all of the trappings of civilization. I'm just looking for an enjoyable time with friends, and I don't do bars.

So they can easily fit in to the experience I'm looking for when I backpack.

As I reread what I wrote, I guess it sounds a bit like a HYOH response, but I'm not sure how else to respond.

I don't see why you would not bring any piece of gear that is both light and useful, regardless of whether it constrains stored electricity or not. Any gear that makes the trip more efficient, safer, or more enjoyable – why not?

"… but at least start by defining your parameters"

Yes Art, please do.

It's a continuum – PLBs, GPS, GPS/Mapping, Cameras, AudioPlayers, Readers …

… and it's not restricted to electronics. You can say the same thing about air matts, tents, stoves, and shoes.

Purist or Packhorse, why would either need to defend anything?

If it serves some essential purpose and is electronic, I go with the non-electronic equivalent. I won't use SteriPens (SP users ask to borrow my filter when their pen stops working too frequently for me to even go out on a day hike with one – if I can hike for six months or so without a single instance of this, I might consider one). I have a GPS and leave it home most of the time – I can read and use a map. If I want trip stats, I might take it and run it to make tracks I can upload later.

I do use a camera, but have destroyed or lost several and keep replacing them with point-and-shoots from Costco. I'm about to RMA yet another camera that ceased to work after a couple of freezing nights out. But pictures are not necessary to my enjoyment of the hike, so. I replaced the endless line of broken wristwatches with a carabiner watch marketed to doctors – it's lasting a lot longer than its predecessors.

As a SAR trained hiker, I endorse the statements from many a national park page – do not depend entirely on electronics in the wilderness. Leave an itinerary no matter how many PLB/Spots your group has. I have a PLB, because I also have had multiple instances of Spot/InReach failures, but I know better than to imagine any battery operated device will ALWAYS work.

Speakers or boom boxes are not Leave No Trace compliant, nor are drones or other toys.

I have camera, GPS, radio/mp3 player with earbuds, radio with speaker, wind gauge, thermometer, flashlight, cell phone.

Sometimes I'm listening to radio, taking pictures, looking at GPS, other times just focusing on nature.

Very seldomly does anyone hear my speaker, it's pretty quiet.

I'de like to get a GPS/camera/satelite text messager but they don't quite have a good unit yet, but they're close

I got no problem with others using or not using electronics. I got no problem someone else dissing me for having electronics : )

Once there were some boom box people. My wife asked them to turn it down. They did briefly, then turned it up louder. Now it's a good story. Type 2 fun?

For me it's simply about reliability, weight and utility. I take an electronic camera because it works great and it's light. I don't take a GPS because I have no need for one – though if they get cheap and light enough (under 2 oz and under $50) I'd take one as a fun toy. I take an MP3 player for audio books because that's lighter than a paperback. I have a PLB for solo backcountry ski trips because my wife said get one.
So basically I have things I want to do while I'm backpacking – take photos, read/listen to books – and if the electronic device is the lightest, best way to do that then I'll take the device.

Technology Maybe Killing Wilderness”

I have what I consider an aesthetic preference to minimize the number of electronic devices, but I take what is useful.

iPhone – most of the time I'm not going to leave it in the car, so it comes with me by default. Not big into photography, so it's good enough for me for that. May as well get the Gaia GPS app.

Not just electronics, but "advanced" technology in general. Who would want to carry only what was available 100 years ago? Advancements in technology make the hiking experience more enjoyable. And that could include electronics. One can have the skills necessary to navigate by map and compass only, and should, but still just a GPS. Unless you enjoy using a map and compass the GPS could increase your enjoyment by allowing you to concentrate on what you came hiking for.

I have many friends that like music, seemingly all the time. I don't. They started bringing tiny iPods and tiny iPod speakers. I finally got them to agree that we each had a "turn" at what music to play (when in camp). They each picked their favorite songs, I choose no music for my "turn". The music intruded on my enjoyment but increased theirs. I don't hate music, when I run for conditioning I listen to music, but not when I hike.

Spot, PLBs, GPS, electronic book readers, etc all have there place in the wilderness. Emergency beacons are safety equipment that each person needs to decide whether to take. They certainly have there place. I like to read a book when I am by myself. An electronic book reader could be lighter than a paper book and therefore worth carrying.

To me, they are problematic if one replaces learning the skill necessary to operate in the wilderness without them. Anything can fail, but electronics fail more frequently and with less "abuse" than most other equipment that hikers typically carry. To me, this is the real problem with electronics, the false sense of security and lack of skill. If you would be lost if your GPS fails then I think you lack the skills to do what you are doing. You are over relying on technology. That is the real problem.

“Wilderness Ethics – Preserving the Spirit of Wildness” was written 20+ years ago when cell phones were just starting to become affordable and hand-sized.

But, I think the question the book raises are very pertinent to today’s world. I suggest reading it.

Here’s an overview:

http://www.pmags.com/wilderness-ethics-preserving-the-spirit-of-wildness

Nobody's dissing anyone if it's actually written into the code of ethics.

Seventh principle of LNT:

Be Considerate of Other Visitors

Respect other visitors and protect the quality of their experience.
Be courteous. Yield to other users on the trail.
Step to the downhill side of the trail when encountering pack stock.
Take breaks and camp away from trails and other visitors.
Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises.

I know someone who breaks this rule repeatedly because he is scared to death of bears, and thinks that Led Zepplin and the like need to blast continuously as he hikes. I don't hike with him much. Nice guy, but I actually enjoy taking pictures of wildlife.

Gosh, another thread full of post modernistic + HYOH non-answers. Come on people! Let's get objective. Its ok for things to be right and wrong. And yes, one can make the same argument about fabrics, but that is not what this thread is about. Art asked about electronics. This could be an interesting discussion.

I'll start off by saying, no electronics don't really belong in the wilderness. Bringing electronics into the wilderness is just another way of people trying to control nature. From wikipedia: "The word wilderness derives from the notion of "wildness"—in other words, that which is not controlled by humans."

I'd say 99% of the time people bring electronics is because they are packing their fears or won't learn the other way. With every electronic there is an equivalent, but you are forced to develop skills. Also, I'd say a big factor is that many people are afraid of being alone with themselves or their thoughts.

I think ipods, iphones, phones and gps speak for themselves here. No!

Now you'll find almost no one that doesn't say you should take a sat phones/SPOT/PLBs etc. But I don't think they are exempt from anything else. If you envision yourself getting into a scenario where it would actually be needed maybe you have to re-evaluate your plan or develop further skills, like solid judgment and decision making. This is prevalent in the front country as well. The equivalent is the cell phone. People do stupid stuff all the time (especially involving cars) and do not use their brains to think through their actions because the cell phone will bail them out. Talk about a crutch. Yet, this is like the third rail of wilderness travel. Apparently, one is an idiot if they do not travel with one. Because how would you survive??

An interesting one is cameras. Do photos and video diminish the experience of others? I'd say yes, since it removes a sense of wonder. It makes the experience more normal in a way. Especially since people take pictures of pictures so to speak. "Honey! This is the spot of that famous photo. Let's take one too!" Leads to dozens if not hundreds of photos of one specific spot. Think something like Denali and Wonder Lake or something like the outlook from the Nankoweap trail in the Grand Canyon.

So with that, I see almost no reason (theoretically) why electronics should belong in the wilderness.

Note: I am not without fault here.

"Brining electronics into the wilderness"

That's a pretty salty comment.

–B.G.–

I guess I am of the other opinion. I do believe electronics belong in the wilderness. As with everything, they need to be used in a manner that does not hinder someone else's enjoyment. I take several "battery powered" items with me. Spot (required by my wife), GPS, phone (not leaving it in the car and it's my camera), watch, digital thermometer, headlamp, Luci lantern and a thingy to blow up my air mattress. ALL of those could fail and I'd be fine. Not being reliant on those things is my choice. I think choosing to rely on them would be foolish, but…

As long as it doesn't disturb me or defile the environment or annoy wildlife, I don't give a crap what somebody brings.

I sometimes bring a GPS to record the track (and always Map & Compass), always a camera, and always the Spot these days (to assuage my wife's fears) and the phone, as per Katherine, so it doesn't get stolen. But then, I must admit the smartphone Weatherbug app came in super-handy a few weeks ago when I was able to check the radar for rain, thereby delaying departure from camp by about an hour and avoiding an ugly slog out. I would've made it out okay with the cold rain, although with a somewhat reduced fun factor.

"Gosh, another thread full of post modernistic + HYOH non-answers. Come on people! Let's get objective. Its ok for things to be right and wrong. And yes, one can make the same argument about fabrics, but that is not what this thread is about. Art asked about electronics. This could be an interesting discussion.

I'll start off by saying, no electronics don't really belong in the wilderness. Bringing electronics into the wilderness is just another way of people trying to control nature. From wikipedia: "The word wilderness derives from the notion of "wildness"—in other words, that which is not controlled by humans." "

You spoke your mind Jack.
I think Doug brought up an important point that makes the question almost impossible to answer. Paraphrasing him….but people get out into nature for all kinds of reasons. If the only goal is to get away from man, to reconnect with nature etc, then one's answer would likely be no. If that is not the main goal, then the question has a completely different meaning.

As far as controlling nature….good luck with that. In my opinion it cannot be done anyway.

I know how to navigate with a map and do so primarily. With modern tools (GPS) it's so quick & easy to confirm your location. In 30sec while still walking I can check Gaia on my iPhone. That's really helpful & nice. Yes I could whip out the map & compass, but why go through that when I can do it instantly on a 5 oz device that can also serve as a camera, phone & Internet device (when I get to civilization), book, and many other things. It's also backup maps, in case the paper ones got wet or lost, and I can download maps for a larger area, just in case. On a recent 40 day hike I never ran the battery below 70%, so I don't use it much, but it's a nice thing to have and to me it's worth the weight.

I bring a watch, which is electronic and also a great aid to navigation, as is an altimeter (which I don't usually carry). Neither is required, but helpful so why not? I have also started carrying a spot, which seems to me a responsible thing to do as it makes potential rescuers jobs much easier and safer. Technology is good!

"Its ok for things to be right and wrong."

Perhaps, and only perhaps, but this isn't one of those things. There isn't some higher truth here, regardless of whether someone wants there to be. And because there is no right or wrong, good or bad answer here, we can only be reduced to framing the discussion in terms of the experiences we seek.

"I'd say 99% of the time people bring electronics is because they are packing their fears or won't learn the other way. "

This is such a trite answer, requiring no real thought or understanding of others, with a meaningless statistic. Nothing objective about it.

"Do photos and video diminish the experience of others? I'd say yes, since it removes a sense of wonder."

This one made me smile. If photos and video remove a sense of wonder, that's an issue with the individual, not the photo or video. And really, as we age, most of us also succumb to a constantly diminished sense of wonder about the world, it seems to be one of the banes of 'maturing.' I doubt you have the same sense of wonder now that you had as a child. Electronics have little to do with it.

So, sorry, there is no right or wrong answer, only opinion, each one valid to its holder. This really is the same discussion as fastpacking, or colors of tents and clothing, or any of the other navel-gazing topics we like to get all riled up about here.

Except for Doug I.'s answer. Which is right.

I'll agree to disagree here.

I think the major difference in topics such as this is that people look at how something like this would affect themselves personally instead of wilderness as its own being and what is best for it (humans and individuals aside).

How does the use of electronics in wilderness affect wilderness in any way?

I can't believe I'm posting at all…

I think stoves are taking the wonder out of cooking. It's so much more authentic to cut your own wood and cook your recent hunted/ gathered items.

Where does it end?

Suggesting people pack their fears in the form of an iPod… Lol
Yeah man I can't take all the natural sounds. I need Phil anselmo screaming in my ear to calm me down from all that peaceful babbling brook noise.

If you are a gentleman you are not a wildman therefore do not belong in the wilderness.

Even years ago, when I began venturing into areas that were to become official wildernesses in 1964, it was obvious that our enjoyment was tech-enabled – things like heliarc welded Kelty backpacks, Svea stoves, nylon (!) tents (to say nothing of ropes), and flashlights (the electronic camel's nose in the tent).

Away with all this modernist,new-fangled garbage. If Davy, Dan'l, or Kit didn't use it, Ban It!!

Of course, to do so, we must perforce introduce more bureaucracy into the woods…which may be the bigger problem.

We have met the enemy and he is us.

Let's do this – you carry what you want, and I'll carry what I want. As long as our habits don't intrude, no problem. If there is a problem, we'll work it out.