Ran into a lost hiker…

Sounds like an adventure. Yeah, the face in the rock. I also see a bunny at top facing the same direction.

I love the two wood texture pics.

While setting off for the Three Sisters loop in OR, a lady at the TH asked us to tell her friend she was at the car if we saw her. A mile or two later we see a completely disoriented woman standing on the trail, literally looking dazed.

Her friend apparently simply left her behind despite this woman having no experience in the mountains. We pointed her down the correct direction and advised her never to hike with her "friend" again.

Roger, that might have been what they call a Team Building Exercise. In some countries they do it kind of weirdly. I've watched it as one member was shamed and disgraced. All I can say is that I'm glad that I don't work there.

Sometimes executives will believe that they can get the whole team to the top of the mountain just by inspiration. I don't think that it works that way, regardless of whatever Thomas Edison had to say.

–B.G.–

Totally nuts. If you're acting as a leader of the group, you assume responsibility for everyone in the group. If someone's lagging behind because they aren't physically prepared, that's your fault for not making the difficulty of the trip clear enough to them or failing to assess their capabilities before the trip. Now you deal with it with their safety and the group safety as the number 1 priority.

"Totally nuts. If you're acting as a leader of the group, you assume responsibility for everyone in the group. If someone's lagging behind because they aren't physically prepared, that's your fault for not making the difficulty of the trip clear enough to them or failing to assess their capabilities before the trip. Now you deal with it with their safety and the group safety as the number 1 priority."

In theory….

The members of the group have to agree with this. You can tell people DO NOTs and they will still do whatever they please. I have tried ( and still do, though my methods have changed) to make clear what the risk is, and your average meetup group has the comprehension level/attention span of a five year old. Doctors, lawyers, etc. and they refuse to take you seriously- it's a mixed bag what you get. There will always be that guy who tells the group, stop at junctions, and he will blow through leaving a bunch of people wandering in the woods – I was sweep and had an attorney do this to a group.

It isn't my fault people don't listen. It might be my responsibility according to a judge, tho, if I was "in charge" and something goes horribly wrong. And talk to a few civil attorneys about the risks to YOU if you are in any way telling people what to do – when that one guy walks off a cliff and the family sues, and despite you yelling and screaming at the group to NOT go near the edge he was ignoring you – not going to be a clean clear cut court experience.

You can't assume responsibility in the way you are describing if people are not on board with it. If you say to a group "we are taking Sam back to the car" and Joe goes the other direction are you going to leave Sam and chase Joe? Joe agreed we would stick together no matter what. Is it your responsibility when he breaks his promise?

People LIE. They agree to your plan and do otherwise when their expectations are not met. Or they discover it is harder than they thought and change their mind. It has happened many times to me with meetup groups, and in Search and Rescue we saw that it happens to families and friends as well. Your control of the group can become fictional in a heartbeat. I have not had an injury, fatality or lost person – yet – but we have temporarily misplaced quite a few, and while it has not always been preventable it has always resolved without calling the Rangers or the SAR team.

Looks like you were up in the San Jacintos, yes?

yeah, weird stuff. I was coming out on the PCT one time and I saw a guy going in. It was threatening rain and almost dark. The guy had no backpack and no discernable gear. I asked if he had a flashlight. “No” was his answer. The PCT traverses across a steep slope in this area and there are a lot of rolly-polly pine cones on the trail. Great way to fly over the side, and there’s no easy way to stop. Tried to reason with him, but nope, off he went.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

Jim:

Thanks for not interfering with the Gene Pool's attempt to cleanse itself.

as the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but…."

Hi Lori

> It might be my responsibility according to a judge, tho, if I was "in charge" and
> something goes horribly wrong.
Indeed.
A common practice these days in Walking Clubs here in Australia is for there to be NO Leader for a walking trip. There might be a coordinator for the car travel, but NO Leader. Some lawyers get a bit freaked by this: their problem, not mine.

> You can't assume responsibility in the way you are describing if people are not on
> board with it.
So we assume that every person on the trip is responsible for their own safety, and they often have to sign a brief form to that effect.

I've stopped worrying. If someone wants to do stupid things, I let them. Darwin will look after them – one way or another.

Cheers

I said nothing about worry – if it were very worrying I would stop completely.

Those waivers make a difference in court roughly 50% of the time. I don't bother with them. It makes me look like a business or nonprofit and I am neither. For them to work at all, or have a chance of working, a good attorney versed in the risks of wilderness activity and wilderness regulation would be best. Sierra Club has strict rules, waivers, and their trip leaders screen – a friend leads trips for a local chapter and people get mad at her for screening. People are upset with me as well as I screen for backpacking trips. Those are the people who effectively screen themselves. I may ask about experience and fitness but I am more concerned with attitude and agreement with "safety first" and filtering lone Rangers out. If someone is upset by this, they don't truly understand the risks or group dynamics and can go with someone else.

A gent joined my backpacking group and immediately informed us that if people come along with him and try to make him slow down or change the itinerary, he leaves them and continues on his planned trip. This is so wrongheaded that he has zero chance of going anywhere with me. Planning ahead to mitigate risk, including the risk of mismatched hiking partners, is the better choice.

The Mountaineers sometimes use perquisites or leader permission for going on group hikes. I'm not a group or "clubby" sort for many reasons, but their methods are built around avoiding scenarios like this. They are big on being trained on the basic skills like first aid and navigation and that have an idea what you are getting into. Certainly they would boot a leader with such attitudes.

Obviously the group dynamic in this case was pretty sick. I imagine you could chalk it up to cultural differences, but not cool in my book.

I've mentioned many times that I often see people out wandering around the woods without the most basic equipment or skills. God watches over fools and little children I guess.

Lori you make excellent points, one's that long ago convinced me of the value of organizations that have experience dealing with inexperienced people. I am a co-leader for the AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club) here on the east coast and things are much more structured. There is a liability waiver written by a lawyer and a fairly rigid hierarchy of leaders, co-leaders and participants. We make the plan very clear before the trip and during the trip. If we get participants like you describe, we do as much as possible to keep them with the group. I have never experienced it but I believe we can boot people off the hikes. AMC hikes have become known for the screening process, being over prepared and the slow pace so that tends to deter the most irresponsible. I've had whining participants but none that would go off on their own against the will of the group, most people are open to reason and we screen out the majority of the unprepared.

Needless to say, the majority of my hikes are either solo or with people I know well.

I am a Korean and I don't get it.

Now there are some instances when Koreans (or other Asians) are misunderstood like when they put on a smile in a very serious situation or appear to be fighting or yelling when they are not. If it was not miscommunication of these sorts, the leader's behavior makes no cultural justification. Although culturally older person is given more authority by default. There are a few Korean hiking groups in Los Angeles vicinity, and this could had been one of them. I ran across a couple them in the past, and yes, there were definitely some air of arrogance about their claimed abilities…. probably because I was younger and huffing and puffing lol

I would guess that the leader was embarrassed and wanted to make sure to convey to you that "they" were not like "him". Pride driven insecurity I guess…

Good thing he had a whistle.