Do ankle & foot injuries mean that trail runners are not an option?

I can't really answer your question, but I can say that I have never felt comfortable in Harriman in trail runners as I find the trails very rocky. I also have had two pretty severe sprained ankles over the years. I like to wear a mid-height light weight shoe which does support my ankles. This year I have been wearing the Montrail Namche which generally I am happy with.

Having had both ankles rebuilt myself, I'll opine that it's trekking poles that are not optional. I've found little correlation between low, mid and high-top footwear and turning ankles, i.e., high-tops aren't any more protective than low.

When selecting trail shoes–and I use low-tops when I'm not going to be in snow–after fit I concentrate on torsional stiffness. For me, that seems to be important for on-trail stability. Twist several models on the rack and you'll find a big variation. I also avoid models with a lot of curve to the sole (angle, not rocker).

A caveat for really rocky trails: mid-height shoes can be better for preventing ankle-bashing.

I find most of my stumbles and ankle rolls occur late in the day, when I'm tired. Trail runners actually lengthen how long I can hike before fatigue becomes a safety factor. And at that point, the poles are priceless.

> 1) Is it safe for someone like me with old ankle & foot injuries to use trail shoes, or should I accept that boots are more appropriate for me irrespective of how much they weigh.
As Rick said, I think it is more a function of tiredness than boot height. However, the heavier the boot, the faster your legs and ankles will get tired.
Anyhow, the MYTH that high boots provide ankle support is just that: a myth. Sure, plastic ski boots do provide real ankle support – you can't bend your ankle in them. But you can't walk in them either. Anything which inhibits free movement of your ankles is going to be tiring and bad for you.
Bottom line: go walking and rebuild your ankle strength.

Fwiiw: I had a bad fall in France coming down a gereasy slab. I thought I had sprained my ankle, so after 3 days off I kept walking. In hindsight it is clear I had cracked my ankle – it took months to heal. But what shoes I was wearing did not make any difference – and mostly I was wearing low-cut joggers.

> 2) Are there any particular trail shoes that meet lightweight standards but that also offer really good ankle and arch support?
Oh sure, but a good model only stays on the market for a year before it gets replaced by next year's model. For this idiocy you can blame the marketing gurus who seem to believe that we are more interested in new novelty than performance.

But note: the MYTH of 'arch support' is another evil concept only recently introduced by desperate marketeers. NO sports doctor will endorse arch supports: they uniformly reject the concept as extremely damaging to your feet. Let your arch be free to move and work. Remove any padding under the arch. Some well-known USA brands are the worst offenders here – I think Nike may be the worst. Salomon are good however.

> 3) How do I judge how safely my trail runners are working out? Short of getting to that terrifying moment in which an ankle gives way under me, how can I gauge how safe my trail runners are?
I don't think the question really applies in the way you think.
The sole must provide a good grip, and natural rubber is the best for this.
Some torsional stiffness is good in soft (mud, snow) conditions, although I wear very soft soles in harsh rocky ground quite happily.
When the soles start to break down and your foot starts to skew in the shoe it is time to replace them.
Learn to go with the roll when it happens, rather than fighting it.

Anyhow, rolling your ankle is not normally a function of the shoe. I can (and have!) rolled my ankle badly on a flat gravel track! I was tired and I wasn't paying attention…

Cheers
Roger

Although I am not Bill Clinton, I can sort of "feel your pain". I fractured my left talus bone (just below tib-fib), developed some bone chips and sustained some soft tissue damage this June from an inversion injury.

After some PT excercises and dumb luck I managed to start trail running again in late August. My physical therapist recommended I wear the ASO brand lace-up ankle boot with velcro figure eight straps when running. It has worked great, it doesn't weigh much, is much more comfortable than an aircast style brace and fits inside most low tops and boots without causing too much pressure.

The only drawback I have found to using the ASO ankle boot is that I have come to depend on them for support when excercising. Continuous use of the ASO will probably lead to the atrophy of supporting muscles, ligaments and tendons around the joint.

The ASO ankle boot runs about $35 each online and isn't the cheapest option to experiment with. Good luck and hope everything works out for you.

David,
I would second Brian's suggestion about the Namche, based on my own personal experience. I, too, have had a bone chip
removed and torn up ligaments that support my left ankle playing basketball and trail running in the past. I have been using Namches since early spring and they have prevented several rolls from passing that point where damage would have occurred, which a low cut shoe would most definitely not have done. I know this because all of my serious ankle rolls occurred precisely when I was wearing low cut shoes. As an aside, the cause of the roll(fatigue, inattentiveness, dumb luck) is immaterial, IMHO; a rolled ankle is a rolled ankle. At ~17 oz/shoe, the Namches seem to me like a pretty good trade-off between weight and support. Rick's observation that hiking poles are mandatory for those with less that 100% ankles is a wise one.

Roger,
Arch support ain't no myth, nor is it a recent invention by desperate marketeers. Over here they're called orthotics and are a standard treatment for over pronation or supination by podiatrists, orthopedists and sometimes physical therapists. Early in my distance racing days, I got into knee trouble when my weekly mileage got up over 60.
A quick trip to a reputable podiatrist and a pair of orthotics later I was back on the road and never again experienced a problem, even when my mileage exceeded 75 miles; turns out I was an over pronator, i.e. flatfooted. Same goes for 100's of thousands of others, according to the literature. However, that doesn't mean opportunistic marketeers won't take advantage of the situation by offering one size fits all "arch support", when one size most definitely doesn't fit all. Nor do I mean to imply in my previous post that one should not work at strengthening their ankles, but I do think a well designed mid height shoe can add a little extra insurance.

So I was holding off commentary, but I guess I will join in..

First, I'll go over what I think qualifies me..

Loving the outdoors introduced me to camping, but climbing is what introduced me to the world of backpacking. That being said, I climbed about 3-5 days a week consistently for about 3 years and off and on for a year or so before that. One day, I made a stupid mistake (most mistakes in climbing are this kind..) and I cleaned off my line. I was at the top of a 35-40 foot problem and I fell onto very hard packed dirt. Missed some big boulders by inches (no exaggeration) Needless to say, I shattered both of my heels (7 pieces for my left, 9 or so for my right) fractured my talus on my right foot, broke my back and broke my thumb clean off (pins in my hand to hold it on while it healed, 2 pins in each heel still) All those other injuries aside, the only injury that I feel everyday are my feet.

This being said, my feet hurt after about .5 miles of walking. They hurt after about 15 seconds of standing still. They hurt right now just from resting on the floor.

So during the past 3 years, I've become very sensitive to my feet. I can say that being in a pair of trail runners does NOT feel good. Being in a nice heavy pair of high boots with nice tight laces feels better. My ligaments, cartilage, etc… got messed up too mind you, so it's not just my heels, but my ankle that is affected too. Especially on my right foot that has the messed up Talus. Now my left heel has a piece of bone that they couldn't put back in flush because they had to rush the surgery due to a tent in my right heel that was killing the skin and therefore, to avoid infection, they could only make 3 small slits in the heel, which didn't allow for exact placement. That bone sticking out makes most boots feel uncomfortable. This is all me rambling since I got started… Sorry

I have orthotics that cost me $500 bucks for the pair. Way over priced, they are simply plastic that was molded to my foot. My surgeon wouldn't even let me start physical therapy till I had them. They are immensely helpful. If they fit into a pair of trail runners they would help, but they don't. They cup my heel which in turn stabilizes me ankle. They are many different shapes to orthotics and I forgot what my shape was called. If you really want trail runners you could get a pair of custom othortics and they would no doubt provide enough support. I personally just wear nice high boots, laced tight, and skip my orthotics all together. Ankle rolls still occur when I get tired or sloppy, but they aren't nearly as bad and tend to twist my knee more than my ankle…

After all this my point is that I vote for a higher boot for the most safety. A mid size boot may be enough for your injuries. No point in risking your feet. Of course, I am biased to the extreme because I care more for my feet on a hike than anything else. I only go light because I have to! It hurts too much otherwise!

P.S. The injury took 1 1/2 years of climbing from me, but for the past 1 1/2 I've been building up my strength and getting back as close to normal as possible. No more heel hooks though!

Roger C.- I think your full of it on this one,

All the ultra-marathoners I know wear orthotics, and
doctors are the ones that prescribe them. They made a big
difference for me after getting plantar fasciitis (from
too many miles with a heavy pack in BOOTS WITH NO ARCH SUPPORT).

It doesn't matter if you have built up your muscles enough
to compensate for stretched ligaments etc., like you said, when they get tired, you sprain your ankle. Most people
get tired when they hike at some point.

I sprained my ankle on the start of a trail run 4 weeks ago
(wearing New Balance trail runners) a re-occuring injury
left over from telemark skiing in FLOPPY boots. It swelled
to twice its normal size. I re-sprained it 5 days later walking down the hall in the same shoes.

Going on a 9 day elk hunt a two of weeks later, I wore high top hiking boots with my orthotics. ALL bushwhacking I had no problems, no pain, no twisted ankles. I did lace the boots carefully and rolled down my socks inside the boot tops to make sure the ankle couldn't bend too far and resprain things.

You don't have to have a plastic boot to get ankle
support, it just has to fit snug up the ankle. There is
still plenty of flex for hiking.

The outdoor schools, which have many, many person days of
experience, require high topped boots.

Also wearing soft soles in boulder fields is asking for stone bruises too.

I wouldn't risk a vacation of a lifetime (or of the year)
wearing low tops if you have existing injuries.

Tom wrote:
> Arch support ain't no myth, nor is it a recent invention by desperate marketeers. Over here they're called orthotics and are a standard treatment for over pronation or supination by podiatrists, orthopedists and sometimes physical therapists.
> However, that doesn't mean opportunistic marketeers won't take advantage of the situation by offering one size fits all "arch support", when one size most definitely doesn't fit all.

OK, let me clarify two things.

1) 'Arch supports' are NOT the same things as custom orthotics prescribed and fitted by a trained specialist. I did not say they were anywhere in what I wrote. I am well aware of the value of custom orthotics to people who need them.

2) I thought (hoped) that it would be clear that what I was commenting on was the claim made by some mass-market shoe companies about 'arch supports'. Definitely the 'one size fits all' sort of insert under the arch. These are a recent invention in America, and are detested by most experienced sports doctors and national-level coaches. There are plenty of published references on the subject. It is interesting that in the rest of the world the craze never took off.

Cheers

Dave

You have obviously had some bad luck. My sympathies for your ankles.

> Also wearing soft soles in boulder fields is asking for stone bruises too.
We have spent a lot of time in the boulder fields in the French Alps in low-cut shoes. No stone bruises at all.

Cheers

There were a lot of replies and although I did not read them I am sure everyone had great advise, I just wanted to chime in since I too torn a tendon/ligament in my left ankle playing basketball.

I still have an ache when its cold or with extended use or after playing basketball since I still play. Despite that I myself wear trail runners and have never had a problem, although I had the same mental barrier that I needed to break just like when I started playing basketball again, I was timid.

If you think it will be a problem why not wear some ankle supports, like the ones you would wear when playing basketball for the first couple of trips for extra comfort. Obviously that would defeat the purpose of the weight but you could use those until you feel more comfortable.

Hope that helps..

Z

Roger,
Post clarification, we're on the same page; same paragraph and sentence, for that matter. To which I might add, "ankle supports" of the one size fits all variety are met with hoots of derision by knowledgable runners as well.
I believe it was T.L. Mencken who once observed: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the American public". Sad, but true, I fear. All you have to do is get some unscrupulous high profile athlete to endorse a product and the stampede is on. Pity, that.

Orthotics are awesome. Are you bowlegged by any chance?

Also check out these nice insoles
http://www2.yoursole.com/home?id=ym5xSpI5

After a long history of ankle problems, I’ve considered trying aircasts and short shoes. After all, we used to wear them for soccer, didn’t slow us then. Otherwise I have pretty much given up hope for trail runners.

Focusing on terrain where heavier boots are an advantage is nice – after all that’s usually the good stuff.

Solo in hazardous terrain I reach for my beefy La Sportiva Makalus. When tied tight, it is virtually impossible to break my ankle in them. They HAVE saved me at least 1 broken ankle in Kings’s canyon (bad jump down 4 feet onto cobbles with a heavy pack on – got an almost-sprain), and innumerable sprains.

Contrary to rumor, you CAN hike in them, yet not fear for a broken ankle. How is that possible?
1. Leather upper is mostly stiff side-to-side, the way ankles fail
2. Laces can be tied to adjust stiffness, e.g. ascent/descent
3. Cambered bottom rolls with stride

*Note* I have the Makalus which are full-shank, but their Glaciers with a half-shank instead would be more flexible for a “regular” (low-angle terrain) gait, with what looks like same boot side design. They used to have them instore at REI.

I've read several places that in order to hike in low-tops that you need to strengthen your ankles. Aside from hiking in low-tops how do you do this? Can anyone point to some exercises that can be done to improve ankle strength?

I'm sure that there are "real" ankle exercises, but I keep my ancient ankles flexable by walking an unused railway line a couple of times a week. Believe me, those rocks will give them a lot of flexing and to some extent strengthen them. I've never had a problem wearing trail runners on the roughest trails.

>>> I keep my ancient ankles flexable by walking an unused railway line a couple of times a week

The old school style no pain no gain works for my old ankles, too. If I'm walking even along a paved surface, I always walk on the curb or if there are rocks I step on them. The unevenness keeps my rusty hinges moving. Also while sitting I often move my feet around clockwise and reverse.

A stability disk will strengthen your ankles quite well. As well as helping improve your balance. On top of everything else they are cheap. I got mine through Amazon for a little over $20 shipped.

I find the more you challenge any part of your body the better off you will be. So instead of going with one type of boot/trail runner it often benefits one to switch around footwear. Certainly this does not mean having a ton of footwear but even 2 to rotate out and challenge your foot bits is a concept that a lot of runners, ultramarathon runners, and hikers adhere to. Your body adapts to the same stresses and can lead to weaknesses in other areas. These weaknesses may contribute to turning an ankle when you start getting fatigued or start enjoying the scenery.

A lot of people are recommending the Namches by montrail and I just wanted to mention they have the same midsole and outsole as the lower and hugely popular montrail hardrock. It could be an option to test the the taller and transition into the lower if you want to save in the weight area. You also have the option of trying the garmont eclipse which is the lower version of your flash. They have a lot more torsional stability than the blur you currently have. I'm surprised that the blurs fit so well because the flashs are a lot wider throughout especially in the ankle cup. Also, being wider and more torsionally stiff than the blurs there is going to be a considerable loss of general stability on any terrain. The lateral support is considerably less in the blur. For me, at 140 pounds the blur is only moderately supportive whereas the flash prevents adequate flex in the forefoot except with a 20 pound pack otherwise my foot will fatigue quickly. Short story, blur and a lower stiffer trail runner will feel totally different but may not be the immediate answer for you. There are few other stiff low shoes like the vasque breeze but these do not offer a real weight advantage for they have shank and very high density outsole. I think you could use these low hikers as a transition zone to those lighter trail runners like the blur or hardrock, or something else.

my last reply was for dave's initial query not Ken's. Sorry if that was confusing I did not realize it might be misleading until after.

Ken,
I second the stability disk, walking on uneven terrain, and light running or lateral type activities. Basketball, racquetball, trail running, soccer, etc any thing where you are stressing the area in need of improvement. I would not suggest walking 10 miles on a railroad bed for your first outing but something in moderation. Stress, recover, stress, recover and do not over do it. I know when I play a pick up soccer game after months of not playing I keep the activity to 30 minutes or to very moderate levels. Sure my teammates hate me for not cutting and sprinting like I'm in the world cup but have experienced the acute pain in my muscles and ligaments to not over do it.

Hi Ken,

A simple ankle strengthening exercise and a very good one is standing on one leg and close your eyes, this should be done out of reach of anything and should be done several times a day.

Tony

John Haley, you are doing pretty much the only REAL ankle exercise there is mate.
I think we can all benefit from that sort of natural exercise. Regular short walks on challenging ground in simple runners/teva sandals is great. Walking barefoot around a grassy park, letting your lower limbs re-learn what they are meant to do will also serve you. As mentioned by Tony, don't forget to train for proprioception.
These simple things make the longer planned hikes easy and less injury prone.
We evolved as hunter-gatherers. It's funny that the contrived gym exercises are seen as real and the real movements, that evolution designed us for, are usually forgotten – even though they serve us best.

David,

1) Is it safe for someone like me with old ankle & foot injuries to use trail shoes, or should I accept that boots are more appropriate for me irrespective of how much they weigh.
…Only you (possibly with the help of a qualified practitioner) can work out if its safe. If your injured ankles could handle basketball then why can't they be trained up to handle long trail walking in any footware you desire?
2) Are there any particular trail shoes that meet lightweight standards but that also offer really good ankle and arch support?
…I can't answer this every one will have differing opinions, as mentioned above forget the arch support but once again a qualified practitioner may be able to fit your light trail runers with orthotics if they are required.

3) How do I judge how safely my trail runners are working out? Short of getting to that terrifying moment in which an ankle gives way under me, how can I gauge how safe my trail runners are?
…The ankle safety will really come from training your own structures. A lower soled shoe will naturally be less of a problem should your ankle start to roll and may be less likely to roll in the first place – so perhaps look for a low (thin sole). I suppose your shoes are working safely if they aren't creating extra fatigue to your body or reducing the natural active stability of your own structures.
Good luck with it mate.

Edit: You can also get a chiro/physio/ sports doctor to show you how to tape your ankle for YOUR injury or current weakness. But think of this as something only for longer harder hikes etc and to be phased out as the ankle gets stronger.

I sprained my ankle badly and found an articulating ankle brace called active ankle. $35 and well worth it. It takes 6mos or so to fully rehab an ankle, or longer!