Beginner Ice Axe Questions

[Anonymous]

I'm watching some self arrest videos in preparation for a potential Mount Washington attempt in Feb.

Question1 Several videos say to drive the soft part of your shoulder into the back of the axe head to drive it into the snow/ice. Do they mean using the top of your pectoral muscle or do they mean the soft part just above your colar bone? Silly question but I'm a big guy and the back of that axe head looks dull but narrow. It's not gonna puncture/injure right? Based on your feedback we'll do some practice the day before around camp.

Question2 For Tuckerman's or lion head's routes, would 2 treking poles and 1 BD Ravine be an appropriate setup for upper body? In summer I use trekking poles 95% of the time to save knees. For winter should I force myself to go 1 pole & ice axe out anytime the grade is greater than 20%? This sounds like most of the Mount washington to me… haha.

Thank you for your input.

[Bob Gross]

Craig, have you had ice axe training? Or, are you just watching some videos on the net and expect to go from there? It sounds like you need to get an hour's worth of training from somebody who knows what they are doing.

I suppose that ice axe use is a bit different for everybody, and some of it depends on the length of your axe as compared to your body size. For me, it is typical that the soft part of my shoulder lines up over the axe head. This is a spot about two inches in from the corner of the left shoulder for me. However, I have done arrests on each side. Some were right, some were wrong, and some were out of desperation.

As I recall, Tuckerman's Ravine has a long runout, but the snow may or may not be covering the rocks. That's why the first time that I went up there, I went up by Tuckerman's and came down the Lion's Head. The Lion's Head had a few steep patches, but they were much shorter, so it was much less likely that I would break a leg. There was 1-2 feet of snow on the summit, but the wind was much more of a factor.

–B.G.–

[Billy Ray]

Get hands on instruction from a professional or someone with a lot of experience. And practice someplace with a safe run-out. Practice falling and recovering in all positions… feet first, head first fall, head first and on your back… then practice all these again with a pack on your back…. forget the video…

Billy

[Billy Ray]

I might add… you can seriously injure yourself with an ice axe if you don't know what your are doing… get instruction and practice..

billy

[Anonymous]

Hey Bob! Thanks for your reply. I read some of your stuff on the linked thread below.

Yup, I have not taken a class. I have my copy of Freedom of the Hills and a couple youtube videos under my belt. we'll be carrying a 30 meter dynamic rope for any 1-2 move exposed spots. Been a couple years since I did a summer hike up Tuckerman's.

Previous Ice axe thread:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=47586

[Bob Gross]

Thirty years ago, I was leading a Mount Shasta climb on the standard route, and there were about eight of us. We slept overnight at Helen Lake and then went for the summit very early in the morning. After the summit, I was back to the top of Red Banks to prepare for the quick ride down to camp. So, I carefully removed my crampons and stowed them, then put on rain pants, got all bundled up, and started to glissade. I couldn't find the right track for descent, but I had my ice axe ready. I contoured back and forth looking for that sweet spot, but I couldn't get much speed up. Meanwhile, some fool started down from Red Banks in full sitting glissade position, but with his crampons still on! That guy slid down a ways, dropped his crampon points down, and that flipped him up and over so he was headed down head first and totally out of control. I just stood there in amazement as this all unfolded about 200 feet from me. The guy slid out of control and then smacked into a pair of climbers. The pair had just been walking down, minding their own business, when this fool smacked into them, which sent them flying. The man of the pair was able to arrest after several hundred feet of fall. The woman of the pair wasn't so lucky. She fell and bounced down over a thousand feet, so she had bits of road rash from the lava rocks all over. Fortunately, she had fallen into a runout slope, so she finally came to a halt. A woman forest service wilderness ranger was there, so she was able to administer first aid. Meanwhile, I walked closer to the fool who had started the whole mess. He was laying face down in the snow. I yelled and asked him if he was OK. He raised one hand and then dropped it down. I took that to mean that he was alive. Then I yelled again and asked if he had fallen (thereby having an excuse to have the crampons still on), or whether he was intentionally glissading (thereby having no excuse). He yelled that he was glissading. I yelled back that you never glissade with your crampons still on. So, I walked off and left him.

–B.G.–

[Anonymous]

I understand there is a practical difference between reading and knowing. Glissading without Crampons is covered on page 299 of my FOTH copy "Remove crampons before glissading; crampon points can catch in the snow and send you tumbling." I haven't found the section on not climbing underneathe/down slope of unknown 3rd parties but i'm sure it's in there : )

It also covers Ice axe placement for sliding feet first, head first face up-belly up, and head first-belly down. I'm looking at the pictures closely, it seems to indicate applying pressure with your deltiod muscle which would be above the collar bone which might answer my Question1. The deltoid also makes more sense as I hold my hands up in position.

[Richard Fischel]

are you planning on placing protection when you rope-up to move over exposed spots?

[Lori P]

There are some things that you want well trained muscle memory for. This be one.

Don't just do it. Get training. When your life depends on a single axe point, it needs to go right. You need reflexes and no book will give you that.

[Ralph Burgess]

Yup, Lori hit the nail on the head. It needs to be muscle memory, completely automatic.

From my noob experience – a couple of Mountain Education courses last year – I found that the ice axe movement itself was fairly natural. Once I'd experienced how it really digs in and stops you when you get it right, it started to feel like a natural adaptation of the instinctive "grab" reflex that you have in an ordinary slip or fall.

But I found it was counter-instinctual to keep my feet out of the way. I think it's just natural of you're a noob to react by wanting to stop yourself with your feet if you're flying downhill feet-first. That will take a lot more practice for me – maybe that improves with more glissading experience? But I certainly felt that I needed to practice head-first arrest quite a bit too, because there's a good chance in a real slip that I'd mess up and flip myself.

[W I S N E R !]

Nevermind, I'm only going to start a predictable internet-climbing thread $hitstorm by saying anything other than "seek professional help".

I think there's an ancient Chinese proverb about seeking climbing advice on the internet…

[Billy Ray]

"You can give me flak for sending someone out to their death without "proper" training. But there was once an age where people did learn certain skills through practice on their own."

Yep… and there were a lot more accidents and fatalities from unarrested falls back then.
Your argument is a justification for being stupid.

billy

[W I S N E R !]

NM.

[Jerry Adams]

I agree with Craig, you don't necesarily need a training class.

Watching video, reading book, talking about it is good. Definitely practice on a safe slope first. You want icy surface to really test yourself.

I'm not familiar with your trip though. If it's really bad ass, probably an experienced person would be more critical.

Do they still make Freedom of the Hills? I have the 1967 version, reprinted in 1970.

In pencil I wrote "self arrest 250-256".

I also wrote a chart in pencil of temperature vs inches of insulation, similar to Richard's chart of clo vs temperature. Different lines for sleeping, heavy work,… Also, a difference of opinion between FOTH and Cloud 7 sleeping bags. Things haven't changed…

[rOg w]

deleted

[Ralph Burgess]

"I think there's an ancient Chinese proverb about seeking climbing advice on the internet…"

– Man who climb mountain with hand in pocket feel cocky

Then there's one that belongs on the "Volumetrically Dense Food" thread:

– All men eat but Fu Man Chu and Justin

[Anonymous]

I've received good/bad advice from internet, books, and guides alike. I appreciate any considerations you guys raise so I follow up with them myself.

Regarding the question about the hike parameters In summer it's a class 1 route. I think 4k elevation gain in 4.5 miles but a solid stair master trail style. Not much summer exposure. Reports I've read suggest in winter the trail will likely be hard packed from frequent use. Local guide itinerary suggest 7am departure time for a 8-10 hour trip. The couple areas I recall that might have turned to snow fields were pretty far from cliffs. Kaerns were roughly every 10 feet due to high fog/whiteout probability (we had as low as 8 foot visibility last time). I'd like to use this moutain to assess winter hazards in the field and am not dead set on summiting.

[Bob Gross]

Cairns

–B.G.–

[Jerry Adams]

if you're not dead set on summiting, then you can just assess risk as you go and turn around if it gets too risky

I took a mountaineering class that included some field trips and summiting Mount Hood. That's probably a better way to go? But the experts in the class weren't all that expert. The next year I was a trainer in the class.

[Anonymous]

" You want icy surface to really test yourself."

Yes, and the first thing you will learn when testing yourself on an icy surface is that your chance of getting a solid plant before you reach a speed that will make self arrest a non starter is damn near nil; so you had best train even harder on not falling in the first place. As for self arrest on either ice or Styrofoam in the head down, on the back, etc, positions, dream on. Bottom line: Don't fall in the first place.

[Richard Fischel]

yep – first thing i was told.

[Jeremy and Angela]

Do they still make Freedom of the Hills? I have the 1967 version, reprinted in 1970.

Yep, version 8 came out in 2010. The page numbers references for self-arrest are now 340-344.

Back to the OP's question, the FOTH text and images suggest that the pick be planted just above the shoulder. This is also how I practiced, using my shoulder to apply pressure to the shaft just below the adze.

Looking about online, I see some variations, e.g. a video from the BMC has the guy falling directly on the adze, and another from Glenmore Lodge shows the same, but both are using short axes. Ed Viesturs demonstrates the "adze just above shoulder" version, and is using a longer axe, but a guy from K2 skis demonstrates the same style using a short 50cm axe.

My particular adze is still sharp, with pointy corners that I'd prefer to not be slamming my weight on. I haven't had occasion to try it on hard snow/ice, but my thought is that any misalignment of force applied to the end of the adze is more likely to cause the axe to rotate than if it were applied to the shaft (thus only applying half the torque). In softer snow this shouldn't be an issue. Bob?

-J

[Bob Gross]

Misalignment of force? That sounds too complicated.

All I know is that I normally walk with my axe in my right hand, unless the slope reverses on me, then I bring it up to the ready position with both hands, and the shaft is sort of diagonally across my front right about at the bottom of my sternum. When I fall on it, the adze is right around my left shoulder and the pick normally sinks into the snow or ice slope.

One time I was sliding down Avalanche Gulch, and I was going too slow, so I was trying to pick up some moderate speed. Then all of a sudden I hit an icy patch in the down-track, so all of a sudden I was speeding downward at Warp Speed. I first tried to roll onto the axe in the normal position. The pick hit and kicked out. So, with a right arm swing, I flung the axe to the opposite side, to my right. The pick hit and kicked out again. Oh, crap! I did another one arm swing to the left side. This time the pick sunk deep, and it grabbed so suddenly that it really jerked my shoulder socket. So, I stopped fast, once that pick finally went in. The whole incident happened because I was expecting the snow consistency to stay constant, and that doesn't have to happen on a big slope. Then I was so concerned about how that almost got away from me that I stood up and walked the rest of the way down to camp (walking for most of an hour instead of sliding fast for ten minutes). If you can manage to do a more standard two arm hold on the axe, the shoulder injury isn't likely to happen.

–B.G.–

[Anonymous]

"One time I was sliding down Avalanche Gulch, and I was going too slow, so I was trying to pick up some moderate speed. Then all of a sudden I hit an icy patch in the down-track, so all of a sudden I was speeding downward at Warp Speed. I first tried to roll onto the axe in the normal position. The pick hit and kicked out. So, with a right arm swing, I flung the axe to the opposite side, to my right. The pick hit and kicked out again. Oh, crap! I did another one arm swing to the left side. This time the pick sunk deep, and it grabbed so suddenly that it really jerked my shoulder socket. So, I stopped fast, once that pick finally went in."

Which is why I said earlier that your chances of getting a solid plant in ice are next to nil. You were very fortunate to slide back into soft stuff before you really got up a head of steam(doesn't take long). And fortunate not to have destroyed your shoulder joint when you made your desperation 3rd try. We were always taught never to do sitting glissades in serious terrain, due to the limited visibility of what lies below. Standing glissades were the order of the day. I was with a climbing party on route to do the North Ridge of Mt. Baker where the point was driven home in a tragic way. We bivvyed the afternoon before the climb beneath Black Diamond Buttes and were eating dinner when a couple of hapless kids decided to do sitting glissade coming down the Roman Nose and failed to see a crevasse. Both went in, one came out alive. It was a very quiet, sobering dinner.

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