Down jackets: Mirage vs FF Helios

My experience is that box wall is far warmer, but
I know some folk say it does not matter if a wind shirt or hard
shell is worn over a stitch through item.

I have a Mirage and it's a great piece.

Mirage has less down but is box stitched and is 900 fill. Helios with 2.5 ozs more down (850 fill) but sewn through. Probably not a lot of difference in warmth. Where you'll see the biggest difference between these two is in durablility. The Helios is about 5 ozs heavier mostly because of the material which is over twice as heavy per square meter. The 7 denier nylon of the Mirage feels very minimal (fragile?). I've owned a lot of FF products over the years, and own several Montbell pieces now. If you went with the Helios, it will last you many years. One of the FF bags lasted me 15+ years of heavy use. I'd be surprised if you got "many" years of use out of the Mirage unless you were very, very careful. Helios is a 5 ounce hit though. Depends on how you will use them.

Mark

Some may disagree, but I don't think box stitching really makes that much of a difference in UL down jackets. When you start stuffing it full of down and it begins to loft is where the box stitch really helps. Basically, it allows the down to loft more at the seams, preventing cold leakage through the seams of the jacket. However, if there isn't that much down/loft to begin with, box stitches aren't going to help that much.

Also in regards to 850 vs 900 fill – FF makes their jackets to order, so you can get them to stuff it with 900 fill. They actually gave me 900 fill in my Volant for free and I didn't even ask for it. Top notch company to deal with.

And 900 fill isn't that much warmer than 850. You ultimately get the warmth from the loft, not the fill rate. A higher fill rate will loft more oz per oz, thus providing more insulation, but 7oz of 850 down will loft more than 5oz of 900 down thus providing a warmer jacket. I don't own either jacket in question, but I own several down jackets with various fill rates and construction techniques, and based on my experience I would expect the FF Helios to be a solid 5F warmer than the mirage.

Honestly though, if you are looking to take the jacket into the teens, I'd pay the extra $70 and get a Volant. That thing is a workhorse. Can't say enough good things about that jacket.

Frankly, either one of those jackets will be fine for that temp. I think you're really talking about a weight vs. durability argument here.

If it were me, I'd get the FF, not because it is better, but because at the temperatures where I'd be wearing those jackets in camp, my trip likely includes a winter summit hike in the Cats/Dacks/Whites. For that usage, where I might wear my puffy at the summit, I'd rather hike the exposed bits in a more durable jacket than a Mirage.

If your usage window is more of a camp-only piece, I'd go with the Mirage for the weight savings.

(My own perspective is based on having a WM Flight and a Rab Neutrino.)

TL;DR — What Mark said.

Good comments all. Thanks.
From those that have the Helios jacket, how do you find the wast? Does it ever ride up, or come unzipped from the bottom up? Is this a pain? Any other fit / nitpicks that have not been mentioned yet?

I've had my Helios since about 2002, in Epic at 16oz. No issues with it riding up, and I think the current design is a bit longer. Never had the zipper come undone from the bottom. The inside pocket doesn't get used much, just isn't wide enough. Might be good for a card sized wallet. It has the best hand warmer pockets I've seen/used. I'm 5'8", 165lbs, and a thin fleece sweater is about the most I would want underneath it.

Steve

I don't know about box vs. sewn through, but the Helios has 40% more down. The Helios is warmer, has a better shell, and the workmanship is excellent. My oldest daughter has a Helios and loves it.

I received my FF Helios today, and it seems like a real winner up against the Mirage. It is definitely more durable (as far as durable goes with light jackets). This small comes in at 16.00 oz, and is only 4.00 oz more than my old Mirage. The hood does not seal as well, or protect you as well as the Mirage. But isn't that why we carry a balaclava?
I wore this outside for a while in the 20's, and it felt good. We will see how it does with a winter trip in NY next week. Thanks all for your good, and spot on comments.

I mostly agree with Zach except the hood issue could be a deal breaker for me. If I didn't care about the hood I would use a jacket not a parka.

I can't say anything about the Helios as I've never tried it. But I do have the Mirage. I consider it very warm, taken it down to the single digits and didn't feel cold in my chest area (did in my hands, but that's another issue – was operating a camera with only liner gloves). It's very light indeed. The hood is big, which is nice, as you can wear it loose if you like, or tighten it up if you want.

I will echo what someone else said though. The exterior does seem quite delicate. If you're going to be bushwacking, I feel like it is inevitable that you will rip through the fabric. For me, it's not too much of an issue, as I usually stay above treeline or at least the areas I go aren't super condensed where I'll be constantly rubbing against branches.

I have a mirage. Only used it on a couple trips so far, but it fits under my oversized marmot precip rain jacket. The rain jacket is always on when gathering firewood or walking through branches or whatever. If I had a puffier jacket that didn't fit under my shell, yeah I would want the fabric to be a lot more substantial.

I have been using the Helios for a few weeks now, and it is great. I used on a trip that was down to about 10 F, and it was good. If I did sit stagnate for a few hours, I would have gotten chilled. The hood is perfect on the Helios. I can zip all the way up and not cover my mouth. I prefer this. If I need more protection, I zip up my R1 hoody, or a face mask. For the size and weight at 16.00 Oz this can't be beat. It is far more durable than my old Mirage. It does still require care when going through brush / rocks, etc. All in all, either one is a good choice, but I am happy with the Helios!

Not to muddy the waters (as I proceed to muddy the waters), but for me another factor that has taken on more significance is the availability of treated down such as DownTek and DriDown.

I wanted to give it a try without making a huge investment, so I got one of the EB FA Stormlight hooded jackets with DownTek. I don't particularly like some of the features, such as the lack of waist and hood drawcords, or the hood size or coverage (lack thereof, actually), and the lack of any internal pocket. Folks who are a lot more fussy than I could nitpick it to death.

My preference is to use the down coat "belay style" as the outer layer, to throw it on quickly over the other layers when activity level quickly drops and remove it and stuff it in the pack quickly when activity resumes.

After wearing it almost every day and using it for several quick 1- and 2-night winter trips I am convinced that it offers distinct advantages over untreated down with regards to 1) maintaining loft and 2) drying out more quickly. I have intentionally started to 'abuse' it somewhat by donning it sometimes when normally I would have waited for my other layers to dry out a bit more thoroughly before putting on the down coat.

It got the best test yet just a couple of days ago as I decided to push it a bit further. The temperature was right around freezing, and it was foggy with frozen rain pellets falling and quickly melting. A bit cold and very humid. I put on the jacket immediately after arriving at our campsite, which as per above normally I would not do. The coat's shell started to wet out after about 20 minutes or so on the shoulders and elbow/forearms, but it maintained loft and warmth for more than 2 hours (and would have done so much longer, I think), and the shell dried out promptly when the rain pellets finally ceased.

Of course all my observations are personal, anecdotal, regional, conditional, etc-etc-etc, but for me the anecdotes are starting to pile up and I would definitely consider down treatment as a factor in selecting a coat.

It'll be interesting to see if FF, WM, Montbell and the likes begin to adopt it for next winter's garments.

Thanks Bob.
That is the best first hand account of dwr down use that I have read.
The question now is how long the treatment will last.

What Bob said. I was about to recommend the EB hooded jacket (mine in the avatar is a 4 year old regular EB down jacket).

I have a new EB Down Tek 1st Ascent vest (EB calls it's gear with Down Tek their Storm down gear). I too have purposely "abused" it, trying to get it wetted out but it just keeps its loft regardless of sweat, drizzle and fog.

OK, yes they call it StormDown 800, not StormLight…