Sleeping pants

I would definitely add down pants to a 20d quilt for use in 0d weather. I've been very happy with the WM Flight pants. They add an easy 20d or more to my 35d bag.

or, it's more important to have a jacket or vest to lower a quilt's lower temperature

you lose more heat from your torso. The skin temperature of your torso is a little warmer than your legs.

"Thermarest sleeping bad.
Borah bivy sack
20 degree quilt"

If I were you, I'd consider adding a little more insulation UNDER your sleeping bag. Maybe a 1/4" CC foam pad or even a thicker, better insulated main mattress. Check out big Agnes and Exped for some of your better options in this regard.

I've often wondered what I'd do in your place. How useful are down pants outside of sleeping in those conditions?

The other option I've considered is a half overbag like the one sold by MLD. Once it gets cold enough to wear the pants maybe I'd rather go to bed. Getting up to take a leak might be bearable with them on though.

Unfortunately I lack the experience to make a good call.

I'd want some additional insulation for sleeping below, say, the mid teens. I bring a second pad of closed cell foam, Powerstretch fleece tights, down booties, and then I drape my down parka over my torso inside the bag. I also put my CCF sit pad under my feet, and wear a warm hat. I have sometimes wanted down pants, but so far have not purchased them.

I prefer fleece pants though, better for camp chores in the wet east coast region – but bulky in the pack…

+1 for down pants.

With short daylight hours, if you want to socialize at all after dinner (perhaps with some Jaegermeister and a cigar) you'll definitely need the extra layer for your legs. Makes a huge difference when the activity level drops.

What ever you get, make absolutely certain that they have full side zips so that you can put them on over whatever footwear you are using. Having to remove footwear, or snowshoes/skis, in the winter to put on another layer is a royal PITA.

The other wonder of down pants is that you can get up without a chill and start making breakfast. The down side is I've found I'm serving a lot of breakfasts in bed…

And obviously down pants presumes you're sleeping in a parka too.

I really like my MontBell synthetic fill Thermawrap pants (U.S. size L, 11.6 oz.) for cold conditions. OK, my WM Flight pants are certainly warmer and 1.5 oz. heavier, but the Thermawraps are easier to clean. The MB pants also have zippered side pockets and a zip fly, which I find useful. And they were far cheaper than the down Flight pants.

(edit) Bob's right, you'll want full side zips (the Thermawraps have them, as do the WM Flight pants).

> I really like my MontBell synthetic fill Thermawrap pants (U.S. size L, 11.6 oz.) for cold conditions.

Gary, out of curiosity, how many degrees do the pants add to your sleep system?

Asking because I'm debating between pants&jacket or warmer bag for the occasional time I need them for the cold. We don't get much coldness down here in New Orleans but I try to go north on occasion. Though I seriously doubt I'll frequently encounter <20F weather.

I'm not sure, Richard, but probably the Thermawraps add 10-15* F of warmth (when combined with a hooded puffy coat, good hat & gloves/mitts, and thick fleece sleeping socks) to my sleeping system. The only time I needed to test this was when I used my Marmot Helium EQ (14* F EN rating), and the temperature (forcast for 15-20* F) dipped to around 0* F. I did fine, thanks to a chemical body warmer thingy at the foot of the bag.

I've worn the MB pants while snowshoeing at +10* F and was almost too toasty while on the move.

Thanks Gary.

I keep leaning in the direction of clothing layers to sleep in rather than a new quilt to get my 35F quilt down to 20F.

I do not have side zips on my puffy pants for ski trips – and I've never felt the need. I only wear them once I have the tent up and I'm settled in, and at that point it's off with the boots and on with the pants and the booties. In the morning, it's the reverse – puffy pants and booties until it's time to go. So the side zips would be dead weight for me. Now if you ever wanted to wear them during the day at a lunch break or something like that, then you'd want side zips because you don't want to have to take your boots off then. But I never do that so no need for side zips for me.

This thread began life as a question about fill power but may help you make some decisions.

My view is that your clothing and quilt/bag are a system, not seperate or unrelated pieces of gear. If you need warm/fleece/puffy clothes for around camp they can be incorporated into your sleep system maximizing both value and performance while simultaneously minimizing cost and weight.

I am in the down pants boat with most others. As well, which TAR pad do you have? If it is the All Season or even better, the XTherm, it would likely be fine on it’s own, but it never hurts to have at least a back up 1/8″ ccf pad…

As for the down pants, I highly recommend going with the GooseFeet Gear Down pants over both the (equivalent) MB and the WM pants. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with either of those, but IMVHO, you get way more bang for the buck, as well as options/choices, and even better sizing/fit for the same price when going with GooseFeet Gear. And if you want a zipper, you can get that too…

Also, as another poster mentioned, my routine for pants takes place once I am settled in camp, then off comes my hiking pants and shoes, and my down pants and down sock with overbooties. I then wear them around camp, to sleep in, and the next morning while getting ready. Unfortunately though, they are one of the first things that go into my pack when packing up, so I don’t wear them long at camp in the mornings.

And for me, I don’t carry rain pants on a hike unless it is going to be cold… So, as it turns out, if it’s cold enough for me to carry my down pants, I will also carry my DriDucks rain pants. It works out well too since I also throw these on over my down pants while walking around camp to help keep my down pats cleaner, as well as help protect them. Of course when I crawl in my sleeping bag, the rain pants come off.

As far as temp rating, I feel like mine easily add an additional 15 F to my ~35 F enlightened equipment quilt as I have slept comfy into the low teens with the pants and that quilt. I feel like these would also push my Helium sleeping bag to pretty dang near 0 F. Although, I will say that my down pants have 3.5 oz of down in them (which up to 3.5 oz is no extra cost if using GooseFeet Gear… compared to the 2 oz of down fill in the equivalent MB & WM pants…)

Edit to add: I forgot to mention, that even though my down pants has 3.5 oz of down in them, which is almost twice as much as in the others, mine only weigh 6.1 oz. This is also lighter than the other brands… And the fit is spot on since I gave him my specific measurements, and they are built to those specs…

I guess I will also add that yes, I did pay full price for all of my GooseFeet Gear items, and no, I am not affiliated with them, nor do I get any kickbacks or whatever from telling others about them… I am just a very happy customer.

By wearing long johns and synthetic insulated (Thermolite Micro) pants and jacket inside my WM Megalite bag I was very comfortable in 15 F. temps.

This was in late October in Colorado's Indian Peaks range averaging 10,000 ft. for camp.

I now have an Eddie Bauer down jacket and covet some WM down pants.

I'll echo Stick….the goosefeetgear pants are awesome.

I took advantage of goosefeetgear's black Friday sale and bought ->

1. Down pants: 3.5oz overfill, pertex quantum (32/32s in jean sizing) 6.5 oz
2. Down socks: 75% overfill (20F when worn alone), pertex quantum 2.7 oz
3. Overbooties: size large 2.0 oz

I had the opportunity of also buying western mountaineering flash pants via the swap…and…as soon as I got the goosefeetgear ones, I caught and released the WM pants. The WM pants were 6.9 oz in size Medium, so heavier…and has 2oz of down instead of 3.5oz. Yes, the seat area is reinforced on the WM pants, but I'll be wearing driducks pants like Stick so its not a concern. The WM pants were also several inches shorter in length…its supposed to be an inseam of 32" in size medium but they were definitely not. The only other thing with the WM pants is that the stitching was cleaner…but that's just b/c of economics of scale since they are more mass produced instead of custom made.

Anyway….the plan is to wear most of my clothes to bed. So, that would be thick wool socks, then the down socks, midweight synthetic base layer, the goosefeetgear down pants, wool hoodie, and a montbell Mirage.

Wearing those clothes……how cold could I get a wide 30F EE quilt down to?

Originally I was planning on using my 30* quilt, with a 40* EE quilt over it, but looking at the EE specs, with that amount of down it would take me to 0* quilt or so…but with 6 oz of extra weight b/c of the doubling of the nylon. So, I was hoping to maybe just take a 30* quilt.

Oh, and as an aside…could I get a few pointers for mitigating the breathing cold air problem? I.e…..one tip I read somewhere was that someone used a dust mask from Lowes to try and get a microclimate of warm air to breath in that also was more humid, though to me that sounds like it would get awfully wet by the morning?