A new Silnylon available – 1.05oz/yd

[J-L]

Sam, the color of 1.1oz SilPoly that Richard tested is listed as "Dark Olive". The RBTR website lists "Dark Olive" as 20Dx20D. I think Kyle wants to point out that 20Dx50D 1.1oz SilPoly was not tested by Richard, and only the 20Dx20D version was tested The 1.1oz SilPoly I have is Charcoal Gray, which is listed as 20Dx50D. I have sent a PM to Kyle asking him to confirm the fabrics I ordered. I will post an update if I learn any of my fabric descriptions were wrong

[Sam Farrington]

Roger, Re: "Do I read that correctly – that you regard the EPIC Malibu as the risky fabric? If so, I entirely agree. I have used EPIC Malibu for sub-zero ski jackets (it sheds dry snow and breathes well), but I would never use it for a tent to take rain. It WILL leak." You did test the Malibu for me, and found no leaks until around 1500mm HH. After 1500mm you found the fabric leaked copiously (my word). I can dig out your test report from old emails and send them to you. Malibu was a fabric used by Black Diamond in its tents, not any of the various other Epic treated fabrics. So I did a test of my own by stretching the Epic in plastic embroidery loops placed over weighted pails on my back deck from September to November in the Fall. I think it was 2011, but it was the most rainy fall we'd had in ages. I feel sorry for anyone who was slowly doing the AT S to N that year. The storms often lasted several days and had periods of intense wind blown rain with breaks between storms that were few and short. The Epic did not wet out or pass water into the pail until sometime over two months. I also had some pre-2005 silnylon out there on the deck that you also tested to over 3000mm. It also wetted out and passed water after two months. It was interesting to note that I recently tried to dye the Epic that eventually wetted out with dark green RIT in the washer. Only the portion suspended in the loop took the dye, and then only very lightly. Another piece of unused Epic in the washer did not take the dye at all. Then began the reading of reviews of the fabric on the net. I read everything I could find and a substantial number had no problems experienced with the BD Malibu tents in rain. Of those that did, and some were quite vitriolic, none offered that the user had sealed the seams with a silicone sealer recommended by Black Diamond, and some acknowledged that sealing was not done, was done (attempted) with a polyurethane sealer like Seam-Grip, or were not even aware that it was necessary to seal at all. I also subjected the Malibu to the highest pressure I could get out of a garden hose nozzle and it did not wet out or leak. And I'm also aware the Black Diamond changed to a different fabric after several years. So yes, I do agree that this particular Epic treated fabric is risky, but I'm also curious to see if it will function as desired if properly sealed at the seams. I think this also might apply to RBTR's very light polyesters, as the polyesters don't seem to have the same self healing properties that nylon does. The stitch holes remain clearly defined and may increase in size under pressure. Hence I think it's reasonable to suppose that very careful seam sealing is required. Because I'm getting older and slowing down, a tent that might work effectively for over a total of 60 rainy nights might be acceptable for me also.

[Sam Farrington]

Re: "Sam, the color of 1.1oz SilPoly that Richard tested is listed as "Dark Olive". The RBTR website lists "Dark Olive" as 20Dx20D. "I think Kyle wants to point out that 20Dx50D 1.1oz SilPoly was not tested by Richard, and only the 20Dx20D version was tested" John, Yes, I think you have it right. Thanks.

[Sam Farrington]

Already I had a PM from ED about Epic. I receive PMs on BPL but cannot reply unless an email address is provided. ALL efforts to fix have been unavailing.

[Greg Mihalik]

"… but cannot reply unless an email address is provided." By which you mean that you don't REPLY via your email app, you click on the embedded link in the body of the text, and that fails to take you to a browser window. Right? Curious indeed. … end drift.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam Yes and no. The problem with EPIC (in one sense) is that there is no membrane. The water blockage is entirely due to the the surface tension betyween the coated fibres and water. While the fabric is clean this works quite well, but when the fabric gets any contamination the surface tension effect can be completely killed. Then the water goes through easily. So yes, fresh Malibu fabric has a good HH rating. Get skin oil or contamination from leaves (or food) etc on it, and … woof. Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Greg, That's right. I get a message that I have no email address on file. Then I check and verify that I do, and wonder how folks could get the PM to me in the first place if I had no email address on file. I've tried different browsers with different settings. PMs used to work fine for me. BPL has been helpful, but has not come up with a solution. So I just ask folks to include an email address with a PM if they wish a reply. It is not a big problem for me, but more of an inconvenience to others. Sorry for that.

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Roger, There was just recently a post from someone who had no problem with an Epic tent from Black Diamond, and after getting good service and no failures with it, was looking for new tent choices. You may have run across that post in your editorial rambles. I wonder how this can be if the fabric is inherently flawed. At any rate, people may be wanting to know what this has to do with 1.05 oz fabrics form RBTR. A few things I think: Both fabrics raise issues with effective seam construction and sealing of low denier polyesters, and experience with this can be shared. With 1.05 oz coated fabric, there is still the added weight of a double wall. The BD Epic, if used as a single wall on the main part of the tent, could greatly simplify design and construction of a tent. This is MYOG here. On a 'side entry' solo tent, the end covers may weigh as much or more as the main canopy and can benefit from the RBTR fabric without as much concern about condensation on the occupant. The very light weight of the RBTR fabric on the end covers allows the partial use of the 1.85 oz Epic treated fabric without any significant weight gain compared to the same tent with RBTR fabric and a double wall, solid or net. What with the conflicting reports, I want to see for myself how the Epic will perform if properly seam sealed and cared for. You can be sure that when it was used on mass market BD tents that was not always the case. So, my Shelties reply Woof-Woof. Happy Trails, Sam

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam > There was just recently a post from someone who had no problem with an Epic tent from > Black Diamond, and after getting good service and no failures with it, was looking > for new tent choices. No, I haven't seen that one. I guess if you only used the tent in clean conditions and never in serious prolonged heavy rain, it might last some time. If you only used it in dry snow – yeah, could be a go! Sigh: our snow is not that reliable any more. Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

With a tent, there's nothing touching it on the inside to wick water. And it's not subject to body sweat and oil. Totally different than clothing. Isn't Epic typically used for clothing? I have a small polyester DWR tarp. Fine in rain, until my sleeping bag touches it on the inside, and then it gets wet.

[Sam Farrington]

So I think that issues about WR are in the nature of 'proof is in the pudding,' as illustrated by Richard Nisley's excellent testing projects, and by personal experiences with specific materials during harsh weather in the field. Translation: I'll put up or shut up. (My ear plugs are firmly in place for that one.)

[Kyle Baker]

We’ve added some additional colors to the Membrane silpoly lineup now. A couple brighter options that should be nice.

http://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/membrane-silpoly

 

[Peter H]

This thread has become pretty derailed and confusing. I’d love to see a “New fabrics of 2015 roundup” thread started. With Dutch’s Hexon and RSBTR’s silpoly’s offerings it’s difficult to know what’s what and the best uses for all the new fabrics. I, and I’m sure a few other members, would be eternally grateful if one of the experts, here, could help sort it all out. Please?

[R]

Even better if BPL would host a wiki so we could distill all the details out of the post streams.  That would be a pretty amazing living reference.

Also, I’m dreaming of Membrane Silpoly in a warm, school bus yellow, like some TNF and old Sierra Designs tents – sunshine on a cloudy day.

 

[Peter H]

And, does anyone have experience with the new 7d coated ripstop at Rockywoods?

[R]

A few people should soon.

http://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/108230/

[Sam Farrington]

Since we don’t have comprehensive and exhaustive tests of these newer and lighter woven materials, I would suggest looking at Richard’s HH test report posts about the sub 20D fabrics. They are recent and easy to find on the gear and myog forums. Then take a look at the available strength specs for the 7 and 15D materials, and compare them with 20-30D specs for context. Rockywoods and Extrem Textil often provide strength specs for a number of fabrics. Although there are many types of strength tests, the specs provided for the 7D by Rockywoods seem quite low compared to those provided by them and other vendors for 15-30D materials.
After looking at the strength specs, albeit meager, I decided to stick with at least 15D, especially with the polyester that typically is not quite as strong as nylon. The 15D thread is over twice the weight of 7D. I concluded that a 15D fabric is a good bet for a mountain tent over a 7D fabric that weighs only about 1/4 oz less per sq. yd.

[R]

Sam,

RockyWoods’ strength spec for their 7D is wrong. I tested it at ~16 lb/in.  It’s probably a bit stronger.

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/108230/#post-3370891

[Sam Farrington]

Rene,
Thanks for the link to your strength test. The post from Thomas Conly following yours raises new qualms, however. I had similar results with some argon samples I ordered a while back before Richard posted his poor test results. Nothing I would use for a tent.
It is a bit of a minefield out there. Will have to be super careful about choosing a fabric for the next tent. A couple extra ounces is IMO worth it to obtain a reliable outcome. Extrem Textil seems a fairly reliable source. The MYOG suppliers here in the US tend to just put it up there on the web without much selectivity, Ray Jardine and Thru-Hiker appearing to be a few of the exceptions.
Given the amount of work that goes into an MYOG tent, I don’t think newer and lighter fabrics are something to just play around and experiment with. Have decided that risk management is the order of the day.

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, thru-hiker seems to have a limited selection but high quality

I question though, whether waterproofness in a tent is that critical.  Especially if it has steep walls.  Water tends to run off regardless.  If a little gets through not that critical, because a little condensation is unavoidable, and rain drops or wind will knock that off, so your gear inside needs to be tolerant of a little water regardless

[Anonymous]

If i had plenty of excess spending money, and wanted to create a lightweight, bombproof, super waterproof, less condensation, low stretch tent or tarp, i would combine 7D silnylon with .33 oz/yd2 cuben, by sewing them around the perimeter (and maybe a little silicone adhesive in key spots).

The respective strengths and weaknesses of each, would greatly compliment each other.  The 7D Silnylon would go on the outside and .33 oz cuben on the inside.   Unless you’re in the desert or the like, then the cuben can go on the outside for greater UV resistance.

About the same weight as regular 30D silnylon.  But much higher all around strength, waterproofness, etc.

Consider mind blown (and wallet too ;)

[Author]

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