A new Silnylon available – 1.05oz/yd

[Sam Farrington]

Richard,
Thank you for your help with these fabrics. It is not only kind and generous, but also saves us (me anyway) a great deal of money and possible wasted time.

Too bad, but there is probably a lesson in there somewhere.

[Kyle Baker]

Thanks for the info Richard. I certainly appreciate the effort and quick turnaround. A couple questions:

1. Did you happen to measure multiple sites?

2. Can you provide the test standard you are following? I'm going into the lab this week for testing and it would be good to know for reference.

This is good info like I said. This is what I'll call the first generation of the Membrane Sil and I don't have a lot of it. Doing the testing now just helps me figure out what to fix going into the production run. It may also be the case that the voids can't be fixed with this particular mill and their looms. In that case, we'll have direction when looking elsewhere.

[Christopher *]

As a mild thread drift, I just wanted to say to Kyle … that is a classy response.

I was sort of expecting you to rebuke Richards results. I had my popcorn all ready! I have never ordered from you to date, but the manner in which you are treating the information in this thread would give me great confidence as a consumer.

Just wanted to say "good on you".

[Richard Nisley]

Kyle,

I followed the ISO 811 standard. The relevant extract from ISO 811 says: “After receipt, handle the fabric as little as possible, avoid folding it sharply and do not treat it in any way (e.g. by ironing it) other than by conditioning. Take at least five test specimens from different places in the fabric so that they represent the material as fully as possible. The fabric may be tested without cutting specimens. Areas with deep creases or fold marks shall not be tested.”

Justin Whitson sent me two 1" square samples (one coated and one uncoated with silicone) of Maxima ESD. He used this weave as the foundation for his DIY EPIC fabric. It arrived yesterday and today I micrographed the uncoated sample. It is shown below as a 5mm field of view. The non ESD (no conductive threads added) version of Maxima is an example of a dense weave (not a lot of large voids) that would lend itself to a very high HH if used as a foundation for a quality silicone coating.

[J-L]

RBTR has recently introduced a new fabric, called Membrane Silpoly. I think this is their second attempt at a very lightweight shelter fabric: http://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/0-9-oz-membrane-silpoly From their website: 1.03 oz/sq-yd finished weight 15D polyester plain-weave construction Sil-coated on one side, PU-coated on the other side (PU2000) HH: >2000mm I've been very impressed with RBTR's normal silpoly (20Dx50D, 1.27 oz/sq-yd) and their PU4000 silpoly, so I ordered some of the Membrane Silpoly. The material is interesting – it feels more substantial than I was expecting, probably due to the PU-coating. It also has no gridstop weave. I will make no guesses on its HH. I plan on using the material to make a mini tarp, for use as an awning on my tent, a day shelter, or for cooking under. The Membrane Silpoly should make for an interesting comparison to Dutchware's Xenon Sil (1.10 oz/sq-yd), which Richard Nisley has already tested. See here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=107266

[Sam Farrington]

Perhaps Kyle could provide Richard with a sample of this new fabric for testing.

[Richard Nisley]

I will test and post the results to the forum if he sends me a 1' square sample.

[Kyle Baker]

Hey Richard I'm sending you a sample today. Thanks again for the testing. I also have a 0.92 oz/sq yd, both sides sil/PU version that I'll send you as well. Two birds one stone.

[Aaron Sorensen]

Where does the .92 oz material come from?

[Richard Nisley]

On 9/28/15, Kyle, the proprietor of Ripstop By the Roll, posted: “Hey Richard I'm sending you a sample today. Thanks again for the testing. I also have a 0.92 oz/sq yd, both sides sil/PU version that I'll send you as well. Two birds one stone.” There was a note included with three samples that said, “Samples of Membrane Silpoly, silpoly 2nd Gen, and Membrane silpoly both sides sil/PU for HH testing.” The three samples are shown below with a transcription of their affixed labels, my guess as to what URLs describes the product in detail, my test results, 20mm FOV micrographs, and 1.4mm FOV micrographs: Label = Membrane Silpoly CG-PU2000 MEMBRANE silpoly CG-PU2000 Thickness = .038mm Small sample areal density = 1.10 oz/yd2 New Hydrostatic Head = >3,514mm H2O Aged Hydrostatic Head (5,400 wet-flex cycles) = >3,514mm H2O Label=1.1oz SP 2nd Gen Dark Olive 5.7/PU 1.1oz SP 2nd Gen Thickness = .049mm Small sample areal density = 1.21 oz/yd2 New Hydrostatic Head = >3,514mm H2O Aged Hydrostatic Head (5,400 wet flex cycles) = 492.09mm H2O Label=Membrane Silpoly sil/PU Dark Olive Membrane Silpoly Thickness = .036mm Small sample areal density = .92 oz/yd2 New Hydrostatic Head = 633mm H2O Aged Hydrostatic Head (5,400 wet flex cycles) = 492.09mm H2O

[Jordo _99]

Thanks for testing Richard! I do have two follow up questions about the possibility of the >3500mm Sil/PU: Do you think that the PU coating would allow for a strong bonding adhesive (such as this)? If yes, my follow-up question is whether or not that high of HH would be suitable for something like a sleeping pad or pillow (or even a water vessel with a very durable skin outside for protection)? …something like this seems like a top tier material for a MYOG tarp or tent fly but it also makes me wonder what other applications it might be suited for.

[J-L]

Since the "1.1oz SP 2nd Gen Dark Olive 5.7/PU" and the "Membrane Silpoly CG-PU2000" both test for initial HH >= 3514 mm H20, why do you think that "1.1oz SP 2nd Gen Dark Olive 5.7/PU" shows worse performance when aged? Does it have a lower HH to begin with? Looking at the 1.4mm FOV micrographs, it seems like "Membrane Silpoly CG-PU2000" has a denser weave and allows for less light to come through. Would that be a contributor? The fabric seems impressive Thanks for the testing, Richard.

[Richard Nisley]

Jordo, The PU200 side of this fabric should provide an excellent bond with any PU adhesive. Other applications that come to mind are UL bivy bottoms, ponchos, pack liners, dry bags, water carriers, gravity filter reservoirs etc.

[Richard Nisley]

John, My guess is that it shows worse performance after aging because it uses a rip stop weave. We commonly see the coating bond being the weakest where the thick RS fiber intersects the thin fibers. The CG-PU2000 is extremely impressive not only because of its HH but also its light weight. My guess is that the PU2000 coating is the primary reason it performs so well. It would make a wonderful light tarp for a thru-hike.

[Sam Farrington]

Thank you once again, Richard In for penny, in for a pound.

[Jim H]

In going to be in for a lot of pennies and not nearly a pound! This stuff looks like fun.

[J-L]

Stuff sacks are a good idea for this fabric (the Membrane Sil PU2000). I'll post an update when I finish my mini tarp. I'm curious when the cottage guys will start using some of these new fabrics. 30D silnylon seems to pale in comparison, especially since it has gotten heavy in recent years (often times weighing 1.6 oz/sq-yd or more). I could see shelter weights dropping and approaching cuben weight-levels in the next couple years. With sub-1.1 oz/sq-yd waterproof fabrics for the outer, 0.5 oz/sq-yd noseeum (or one of the multiple ~0.67 oz/sq-yd solid 10D fabrics) for the inner, and a high HH 1.4 oz/sq-yd floor, MYOGers can whip up some nice stuff :)

[SWD Backpacks]

Yeah i actually just made a 2 person net tent with the .5oz no seeum and the 1.1 silpoly and it came out to 11.5 oz finished. Im about to make something along the lines of a ray-way tarp out of the membrane silpoly to go along with it. It looks like its shaping up to be a pretty light shelter all for around $120 bucks in materials.

[Kyle Baker]

Thanks again for your time here Richard. I appreciate it. Do you happen to have any pics of your test setup? I'm just curious to see everything. Regarding the results, I was hoping the sil/PU both sides @ 0.92 oz would crack 1000 mm, but I guess we'll have to keep at that one. Good to see the results on the PU2000 Membrane both new and aged. I actually got the idea to go sans ripstop from reading discussions on here between yourself, Caffin, and others. Cool to see it panning out. For those that are interested, we are actually doing a finished Membrane tarp giveaway right now. This is the tarp that I made personally to test the Membrane silpoly prior to producing it. Complete with a bunch of accessories and you also get a 15% off code for any Msil purchase through the end of the month. -> You can enter HERE.

[Steve Chan]

A few months back you had a thread about 20Dx50D silpoly floor material and it looks like you now have a 40D ripstop silpoly that seems to be ripstop. I was actually thinking about picking up some of the membrane silpoly for the floor of a UL bivy, but have some concerns about it being so lightweight for the floor material. Maybe down the line, a 40D taffeta silpoly would be the ideal tent floor material? Abrasion has been identified as ruining the HH of silnylon material, and a 40D taffeta might have the long term HH of membrane silpoly, with enough material to be a durable tent floor.

[Richard Nisley]

Kyle, You said, "Thanks again for your time here Richard. I appreciate it. Do you happen to have any pics of your test setup? I'm just curious to see everything." Typical HH Failure My Wet Test Area My Dry Test Area

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Richard, I tried searching back through threads (I know its there somewhere…) but what were the HH and aged HH results you had for 1.0oz cuben fibre? 1.43oz CF? Just strikes me that for a large number of uses the CG-PU2000 makes the use of CF obsolete…

[Richard Nisley]

Adam, My original Cuben HH tests were done in 2011. My database lists these old values. If Cuben hasn't changed since 2011, then indeed it appears as if the coated 1.03 oz polyester from RBTR will hold up better with use. Other than a floor, the old Cuben values, after aging, are still more than adequate to keep rain off. See Ken Larson post for graphical summary.

[Sam Farrington]

"Just strikes me that for a large number of uses the CG-PU2000 makes the use of CF obsolete…" There are also issues of degree of sagging with increased humidity and cold, abrasion resistance, types of tear strength, supply and consistency of quality. I also haven't worked yet with sewing the Membrane PU2000. I think it will take some time to fully assess this fabric. Looks good, though. A no-brainer for me because I prefer sewn seams, and they are much easier and more effective with a woven fabric (assuming it is a woven fabric). But others have different priorities.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Absolutely Sam. Be interesting to see some simple tear tests vs more regular Silnylons (eg Shield) and various cuben weights. The existance of this fabric (and the cheap price) is encouraging me to think about doing some different tarps and poncho ideas, and also a Bivy…probably be a great Bivy floor.

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