A new Silnylon available – 1.05oz/yd

[Ryan Smith]

In case there is any interest by you MYOG'ers out there, a new Silnylon is on the market. Looks similar in weight to the SilArgon which has been out of stock forever. 65" width. >1,000 HH supposedly.

http://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/membrane-sil

Note: I'm not affiliated with this company. Just came across it and figured I would pass it along.

Ryan

[J-L]

Wow, Ripstop by the Roll has been busy. They just came out with the SilPoly too.

I find it interesting that this 15D silnylon fabric has a side which should be facing outward toward the elements. The bottom face almost looks like it has been calendered.

[Roger Caffin]

> >1,000 HH supposedly.
If that is 1,000 mm, then it is barely 'silnylon'. It will leak fairly easily. Just a warning.

Cheers

[J-L]

Roger, under what conditions do you say it will leak? As a tarp?

What HH do you normally consider acceptable?

>1000 HH could mean almost anything. It could mean 10,000mm HH (unlikely though). I think it either hasn't been tested, or the test that was used only has the granularity to say the HH is >1000mm or <1000mm. Or >1000mm HH is all RTBR wants to guarantee

[Ryan Smith]

"If that is 1,000 mm, then it is barely 'silnylon'. It will leak fairly easily. Just a warning."

Yep, that's supposed to say 1,000mm. Keep in mind that these fabrics are designed for hammock hangers so they've got plenty of tree cover. I assume that would help reduce the velocity of the rain drops and require a lower hydro head. Still, should work fine for steep sided shelters I would think.

Ryan

[Anonymous]

I remember some of Richard Nisely's posts talking about silnylon's WP coating degrading faster than you'd might think.

So, if it starts out less than usual, and much less than high quality, there may be issues to consider.

[Kyle Baker]

Hey guys, I've been meaning to start a thread on this material to start gathering critical feedback from the crowd, but Ryan beat me to it! I'll start with addressing the 1000 mm HH spec. This fabric has been tested using the JIS 1092 standard to an average of 2114 mm over a sample of 5 sites. However, the numbers we are familiar with typically come out of ASTM sutter tests. 1000 mm is a roundabout converted equivalent that you would expect when doing that test. If you were putting coated fabrics in a line and judging worth solely based on HH, this would be the number to use.

But here's the deal- based on my experience (which granted is somewhat limited compared to some folks on this forum), there are a number of variables at play when it comes to the ultimate worth of a coated fabric intended for use in shelter design. For instance, how does the coating hold up over time, how does it withstand abrasion, what happens after the fabric starts to leak, what happens when you rub the fabric under hydrostatic pressure, etc. Throughout the past couple years I have sampled, handled, and tested a lot of coated fabrics. Not all, but a good number. What I will say is that there are a lot of mills that claim they can do coated goods, but very few that actually have the expertise to do it well. That being said I had to search and test iteratively to come up with this fabric. Taken in the context of all other coated fabric testing I've done, this is BY FAR the most promising 15D ultralight coated fabric I've found.

There have been predecessors trying to do 15D as someone else mentioned, but I would contend that those fabrics are off the market for a reason. There are even some threads floating around BPL that document some of the issues found with those fabrics. I've tried to incorporate some things into the Membrane sil that either fix or greatly improve some of those issues.

Is Richard Nisley still open to doing fabric review? It would be good to send a sample and get an independent review.

[Sam Farrington]

Yes, a test result from Richard would be enormously helpful.
If you've bought some, please post and maybe Richard will PM you to send him a sample.
Too bad about the black, though.

[Kyle Baker]

Richard if you're open to testing a sample, please let me know. Thanks!

[Richard Nisley]

I am in transit back home from a one month adventure trip. Send me a sample and I will post the results to the forum. I will provide you a mailing address in response to a BPL PM.

[Roger Caffin]

In my humble opinion …

1,000 mm is simply not enough.
1,500 mm is barely adequate for a pitched fly, but not real good for a groundsheet.
2,000 mm is passable – but then you have to ask about lifetime. I have absolutley no knowledge about that at all.

I am quite familiar with the Suter test, but not so much with the JIS 1092. However, I am very puzzld by the comment that >2,000 mm under JIS1092 might translate to >1000 mm with a Suter test. I would welcome a copy of the JIS Standard.

Cheers

[Bill Townsend]

I have some of this fabric on the way(maybe today even).

I plan to use it on a relatively steep sided hammock tarp, possibly a mid, for the reasons Ryan mentioned. I wouldn't expect it to serve as a floor.
My understanding- the only thing that reliably works is a Sil/PU combo fabric- Can't say as I have found one I like under 3 ounces finished though.

I was excited by two things- the 65" width.
The waterproofness under contact/abrasion.
I didn't hear a HH number at the time of order.

When it gets in, I will post some pics if Kyle doesn't have any up by then.

BTW-
RBTR also just got in some 3.6 ounce Apex which also is on the way to me as a promising alternative in my opinion to hit that sweet spot between switching from Apex 2.5 to down. By my numbers- that's the spot where switching from synthetic to down makes sense when increasing warmth.

[Daryl and Daryl]

"I plan to use it on a relatively steep sided……..tarp"

I have a steep sided rainfly that had a urethane coating on it 40 years ago. I think the coating has mostly worn off because I can now breathe through the fabric…….but the rainfly still seems to keep the water off the inner tent.

Makes me think that absolute water proofness may not be required with some tent designs. I haven't done enough experimenting to say this with a lot of confidence, however.

Am looking forward to your experience with this fabric.

[Mole J]

Tarptent were using 1200mmHH silnylon for years. As have/do other tent manufacturers

I've no complaints about the waterproofness of the fly on my Scarp. It's been in many serious prolonged rain storms (several with 50+mph winds) and not leaked yet.
Cotton tents may have low HH and keep water out if not touched.

[Bill Townsend]

Haven't had time play with it much- but right off the bat-
It's not ripstop, I sorta assumed it was. That said, not disappointed and though I'm no expert I do recall a few posts here pointing out that the grid can cause problems with an even coating and wear.

I can suck a little air, just a hair more than Sil-Argon but not by much. But I can easily see my hand through the sil-argon, I can barely see the outline of my hand in this. (brick red sil-argon)

It is a nice deep uniform black. Again, I think I recall some pointing out before that poor fabric was easy to see in blacks?

Here's a few picks on my "light table" which is just a window with a lamp under it.
Don't know if these do anything for anyone but…

Any validity/info to be gleaned from the "kneel on a wet towel" test some here have mentioned? I can try it if it means anything. I have to admit I'm more of a hang it up and see what happens sorta guy.

[Roger Caffin]

Bill

Looking at youre photo of the red, I can see ripstop threads pretty clearly. Yes, it is a very fine ripstop, but it IS a ripstop imho.

Yes, plain weave is actually more waterproof than ripstop, due to leaks where the larger ripstop threads cross over. Photos of pressure testing show that very clearly.

Cheers

[Bill Townsend]

My error- the red is the sil-argon, the black is the sil-membrane.
Sorry! but thanks for confirming my recollection either way.

As Kyle mentioned, more than just HH.

[Sam Farrington]

Great! Can't wait to see what Richard comes up with.
There are good alternatives almost as light (within .05 oz), by disassembling tarps, but much more expensive. So this one, if available in a range of colors, and somewhere close to the HH Roger recommends, would be a boon for MYOG.

I've observed many instances where fabrics have blocked rain over long periods, and seemed reliable for shelters, only to have them fail when rain and wind became even longer and more intense than usual. I haven't the first clue of the science involved, only know that it consistently happens, usually in sites that are open and exposed. If the winds are strong from one direction, the tent wall pitched at an angle won't help much.

What's confusing is that HH doesn't always seem to be a predictable measure of when the breaking (leaking) point will be reached in actual use. That may be because the makers lower the HH represented to be sure they do not exceed the actual. Or that the HH level varies in the coating on the material. Or it may be due to the type of coating (sil, PU or combo), but although often mentioned, what evidence has been offered in support? Yet Ian at WE did maintain that a PU floor was used for the sil bug dome because it remained more water resistant under pressure and use. So maybe the PU lasts longer, not the peely stuff of old, but currently. This would lean in favor of the coatings on the former Golite tarp, or StoS Escapist tarps, all or mostly PU, and with the characteristics of PU, although with some sil content claimed for the latter. They both are or were spec'd by the makers at 1200mm HH.

I think exposure to less severe storms, and variations in the coating on the same fabric, are the best explanations for different results in actual use with the same tested HH. This would also explain why makers spec a lower HH, knowing that coatings are not completely uniform. It is also consistent with Roger's many observations of material with otherwise a good HH leaking at the larger ripstop threads. Taking all that into account, the higher HH would usually be the safer bet if it also tests well after simulated aging
.
Usually I'd order something like the Membrane as a risk venture, but since I'll never make a black tent, Richard's test and possibly some lighter colors will be anxiously awaited.

[Kyle Baker]

Yes I sought out a plain weave for the Membrane sil for that very reason. Some of the threads here on BPL peaked my interest in the idea of using a non-ripstop, so I went off and tried it. The testing I've done seems to back it up.

I think a lot of times we get into this rut of just using what's familiar without really exploring the viability of other options. I'm trying to get out of that rut :). IMHO, there are better ways to make a UL coated fabric than simply sil coating your 15D quilt fabric.

[Kyle Baker]

That would be great Richard thank you. I tried to send you a PM but it says you haven't specified an email address. Something I'm missing?

[Richard Nisley]

Kyle,

I have previously received a large number of BPL PMs. I checked my profile and my correct email is listed there. Please try again and if it doesn't work contact BPL (Roger?).

[Daryl and Daryl]

When I pull your names up it shows that I can send a PM to Richard but I can't send one to Kyle.

Could the interaction of these different protocols be part of the problem?

[Link .]

Kyle has not put in an email address and needs to add one for sending and recieving PMs by going to Change My Profile in the column at the right side of this page.It is not Richard that has not specified his email address it's Kyle.

[Kyle Baker]

Got it. Thanks for the help.

[Richard Nisley]

Kyle,

I received your sample today. Unfortunately it only tested 562.39 mm H2O. The primary problem is the looseness of the weave shown in my 5mm Field of View micrograph. Even if you put a thicker coating on this fabric, the large voids in the weave would tend to leak from wet flexing.

[Author]

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