Load Carrying Capacity: Frameless vs. Framed

Hi Kelly,

I was a pre 911 soldier so I can't say that my information is still accurate but back in the days of yore, the miserable waist band on the Alice pack was never used due to the LCE we had to wear underneath it. We would normally and routinely carry load that were between 75-110 lbs.

The LCE (suspenders with load carrying belt) carried two quarts of water, six fully loaded M16 magazines, compass, butt pack, etc was probably (never weighed it) another 20+ lbs. For the typical grunt, the belt didn't carry any of the weight and was purposefully left very loose to allow for the soldier to twist around in it when doing combat rolls, etc as rolling over onto a canteen can be a painful experience.

Anyways, all of this weight was carried directly on the shoulders.

I've gotten soft and pudgy since then and it'd kill me to try and recreate that experience. I do however prefer to carry my pack on my shoulders alone and don't worry about the hip belt. I bought my Prophet used off of gear swap. If I were to buy one new, I'd get it with the optional/removable belt. I've had as much as 20 lbs in this pack and it carried it comfortably. I haven't tried 30 yet.

As far as training goes, I suck at pull ups and I can get 'er done.

I have an inconspicuous (10L?) day pack and 6 4# lead weights. We have a couple of 2 hour, 6 mile r/t, 2000' routes out the front door. Eight weeks out from a trip I carry it every other day. Four weeks out I carry it every day.

It makes those first few days on the trail a lot more fun.

Thanks Ian,

That's just the insight I was looking for. I figure with pull ups, shrugs, and military press, I can get the requisite conditioning for a frameless pack.

Now I just need to decide to sell the porter or keep it. I know of a used Ark that can be had for cheap, so I could still have a large volume pack for winter trips and recoup some of the egregious amount of money spent on the HMG pack.

One thing to look out for is shoulder injuries

I used to be able to trundle along with 20-30 lbs on the shoulders with nary a worry

These days, with shoulders weaker from years of climbing injuies, i need to be much more careful

Remeber you can carry any pack on your shoulders, but you cant carry any pack on your waist

Something to consider if you pull your shoulder on your trip (always a concern when climbing)

;)

Thanks Greg,

Good stuff, nice to know that training makes it easier. I like that regime. It will definitely help and I'll give it a try.

Hi Eric,

Do you think with enough training ahead of time you can get in front of most shoulder injuries? Thanks for the heads up :)

Sometimes the "training" can result in shoulder injuries !!!

I used to be able to pump out 20-30 pull ups and 100+ push ups easily just a year or two ago

Unfortunately whenevr you use your shoulders hard you are always at a risk of a rotator cuff or other such injury

Strengthening the cuffs is always a good idea … But once you get older and keep on doing sports, injuries are a fact of life

Last year i made a shoulder injury worse carring 20+ lbs in a frameless pack carrying climbing gear

So if yr shoulders arent in top shape or yr becoming a durty ole AZN man past his prime, alot of weight on the shoulders might not be the best idea

;)

My right clavicle is no longer attached to my scapula. My right shoulder sits about a inch lower than my left. Carrying a pack is not an issue. (see above)

My rotator cuff (lifting a pack), on the other hand, gets very vocal if 1) I exhibit poor posture/ergonomics, and/or 2) slack off on thera-band exercises.

Thanks guys,

I've broken my clavicle and it really doesn't interfere with carrying a pack either. I will definitely pay more attention to my rotator cuff. Never had an issue there before, but it's nice to know what to look out for.

Sure, I think you could train your muscles to carry that much weight in a frameless pack. But I think it seems kind of silly to spend time training just so that you can carry 32 lbs on your shoulders vs 33 lbs on your hips for one trip. Maybe if your training makes it so that you can hike farther more easily at the same time, it would be worth it.

Does it have to be frameless or nothing? What about the MLD lightweight suspension upgrade? Or a UlA Ohm 2.0? Or a ZPacks Arc Blast? It seems with these packs, you could split the weight difference and still reduce the load on your shoulders.

"My experience tells me that most folks will find 15 pounds acceptable for long distances (e.g., more than six hours of hiking per day), and 20 pounds acceptable for short distances (a few hours of hiking per day). Those with well-conditioned shoulder muscles can usually accomodate 25 to 30 pounds for short distances and 20 to 25 pounds for long distances."

That article is clearly talking about frameless packs without a waist belt. So rather then talking about framed vs framless, the topic should be about waistbelt vs no waistbelt. Most frameless packs (except for the minimalist ones used by the SUL crowd where they typically remove it or have it made without one), have some sort of waistbelt. They typically are on the minimalist side compared to the one's on a frame pack. But they still do help transfer part of the load off your shoulders.

I normally use a frameless ULA CDT backpack which does have a waistbelt. I don't condition my self other then by going backpacking. I often go months (sometimes over 6 months over the winter) between trips. And yet, I regularly go out carrying 22-27 lbs. I typically hike all day with a few breaks spread out over the day. Above 24 lbs, my shoulders may experience some minor discomfort by the end of the day. I usually only notice it when I take my pack off at camp. It wasn't at the level of something that I consciously noticed as I hiked so it doesn't impact my enjoyment of the day's hiking and in no way impacts the hiking time or daily mileage.

With a waistbelt (even a minimal one), how you pack your pack directly relates to how comfortable the pack will carry the load. The more rigid you can make your pack, the better it will transfer weight to the belt. When I first got a frameless pack in 2007 (ULA conduit, heavier precursor to the CDT pack), I did often have shoulder problem on trips due to the weight after only a few hours. It was due to how poorly I was packing it as I was packing it the same as I did my frame packs prior to that. I quickly learned that if it feels uncomfortable, stop and repack it differently. I soon learned how to pack it for the greatest comfort and rarely have any shoulder problems at all.

So for me, the weight savings of using a pack without a waistbelt isn't worth it for the amount of backpacking I do (ie. my lack of shoulder conditioning) as the discomfort of the loads I typically carry would kill the enjoyment and possibly limit the time I could hike each day. In my case, the difference between having a 8-9 pound baseweight vs a 7-8 pound (difference is from the backpack's weight between my CDT vs the older Zpack one in the article) isn't something I'm going to notice much. I will notice a difference in the comfort level on my shoulders though.

As for your question about training, I once read that Scott Williamson (2 successful YoYo hikes of the PCT and the former holder of the unsupported speed record for the PCT) trained for his YoYo hikes during the winter months by snowshoeing with a pack loaded with heavy chains. For the southbound half of his YoYo, he was going through the Sierra Nevada after all the typical resupply locations were closed and had to carry a 40+ pound load through there in his frameless ULA Conduit pack. I think carrying a full pack, even if its just a dayhike, is still the best form of training.

I never liked carrying weight on my shoulders, even when I was in the army carrying alice packs and LCE. Although I never carried the weight that Ian did (that's what CUCV's and HUMMV's are for), even the weight of a slung M203 was enough weight to cause extreme and painful fatigue in my neck and shoulders. There are nerves that run through upper shoulder that probably shouldn't be compressed for long periods of time.

Make no mistake, carrying the Alice pack was a small piece of hell and I'd certainly swipe the card on a Unaweep or a McHale somethingorother if I ever needed to carry weight like that again.

I just like the simplicity of a frameless/beltless pack. Even when I'm using my Ohm, there will be miles where I just leave the belt off, not that their awesome belt was hurting me in any ways. I haven't had a reason to go over 20lbs with my Prophet so I really can't say how it or I would do with that kind of weight.

I realize that I'm in the minority in this regard and this isn't for everyone.

This is something that varies a great deal from person to person, and I'd suggest just trying a nice long dayhike with the pack you have in mind and the weight you expect, to see how it is for you. Same pack, same weight, two different people, can be two very different stories.

Good thread. Interesting variety of replies as can be expected. As said much comes down to personal preference in design/performance in use. Personally I hate bearing any considerable weight on my shoulders. Not for any prior injuries or age but my skin can get easily strap rashed due to sensitive skin sometimes. For me a belt is a must and I will carry the extra hand full of ounces for a light framed pack. If my lower back begins to groan a bit I will shoulder the load for a break but I carry it much more comfortably most all day on the hips.

As far as training IMO there is rarely a better physical substitute better than the real deal. When I did a lot of MX riding, cross training in the winter was better than nothing but not like spending time on the bike. With BPing I'm training any time I'm can carrying my pack. YMMV

jimmyb

I think there is much more to it than shoulder strength. I can carry heavy enough loads on my shoulders (33 lbs up the mist trail in Yosemite), but it hurts almost immediately. I have pain in my shoulders, actually closer to pain in my neck than shoulders, with even a weight as low as 5 lbs. It has a feel of nerve pain, often "electric" shooting pain between my shoulders at the base of my neck.

I also can't wear a "yoke" type shoulder harness at all. Those hurt with no weight.

I couldn't carry weight on my shoulders even when I was young and lifting weights.

So, I think there is more to it than simply strength.

P.S. You can see my 33 lbs in a frameless pack in my avatar picture. ;)

"Any thoughts, references, insights?"

Two thoughts beyond muscle conditioning: 1) Blood circulation will likely be decreased near the muscle surface due to the pressure of the pack straps, in proportion to the weight of the load being carried; 2) Weight bearing at the top of the spinal column, which is curved, is a bad idea. There have been a number of studies done on the negative impact of this on the spines of school aged kids who carry loads of books in frameless, beltless packs. I don't have links, but they can easily be located with a Google search. If I were you, I'd at least use a belt and try to stiffen the pack using one of the usual packing techniques. Even better, settle for a slightly heavier pack with a frame and avoid turning your hike into a "Stations of the Cross" exercise. There are some very good options out there that don't weigh much more than a frameless pack. Z-Packs, ULA OHM, to name 2.

"Thru-hikers who have been on the trail for several weeks with a frameless pack may find 35 pounds, or more, acceptable at both short and long distances."

L O L !

Some of these guys just have too much testosterone drenching their brains to have any good sense…

Billy

"depend primarily on the strength and conditioning of your trapezius and deltoid muscles".

Biomechanically it just seems crazy to argue that you can condition your traps and deltiod muscles to perform more efficiently than the huge muscles in your hips. Any shift towards a faster anerobic state, is going to sap energy from your whole body (not just your shoulders).

Coming from a weight lifting background (Bench Press currently 380)I've found deltoids to be one of the easiest muscles to overtrain and injure. Furthermore shoulders are one of the slowest injuries to recover.

The reason i use a 1 lb frameless pack is because below a certain weight 15-20 lbs, a robust frame pack isn't able to transfer enough weight to offset it's own added weight (3-4 lbs).

I'm pretty sure if you go to a store and load up 30-40 lbs, you'll instantly say, wow this 44 lb pack with a frame feels way lighter than this 41 lb pack without a frame.

Invest that deltoid time alternatively into aerobically training your quads, hamstrings, glutes and I think you'll see a bigger rewards on miles per day. If you like the weight room, deadlifts are great for hamstrings, back and shoulders.

"It made me wonder if there were any articles or forum posts that dealt with conditioning specifically?"

I really liked the freedom of the hills chapter on conditioning as he specifically talks about how to train for VOmax vs Lactic acid threshold, etc.

Lots of good things to consider. I appreciate all the responses. Will end up keeping the porter for the heavy loads for now. I have an old Jansport external that I would like to chop up at some point and convert to a lightweight MYOG external. At that point, I will reevaluate the need for a pack like the porter.

I've also done 20 miles days with a Kumo (sometimes w/o the belt) and a 20lb load and it was no problem at all. Just trying to gauge the effect of an extra 10lbs and the article seemed to offer a little insight.

Seems the best course of action is conditioning (full body) and trying 30lbs in the prophet a couple weeks before the trip.

Thanks for the article reference, Craig. I will check it out.

I carry a 50 L. Camelbak "Commmander" caamo hunting pack with 30 + lbs. for training.

Originally the pack came with a floppy plastic "frame sheet" and cloth waist belt.

MODS:
1. Cut off cloth waist belt an added REI Ridgecrest padded belt, sliding it behind the pack's (partially unstitched) lumbar pad.
Luckily this was a perfect fit and looked like it was made for the lumbar pad mod.
2. Added a "Pi-shaped" internal frame by bolting on pre-curved inch flat aluminum stays thru the frame sheet.

NOW I have a framed pack that can and has carried 45 lbs. for a winter Ski Patrol trip.

Two added side pockets increase the volume by 2.5 L.

But my new OSPREY EXOS 58 pack is even more comfortable for actual 3 season trips at 25 -30 lbs.
As Osprey says, the comfort of a frame pack (transferring load to the hips) is well worth the small added weight of the frame.

First a question for Kelly: Is your dad the landlord of my used bookstore in Maine?

As to load carrying, I am 65 and still carry too much, although I have reduced in no small part thanks to BPL. Will Rietveld (I am sure) made a study of backpacks a few years ago in which he discussed the bending packs will do as they get full or overfull. I have found this to be a real problem for me as I have stuffed things into a smaller pack. For multi-day trips in Baxter State Park in Maine I usually carry the GoLite Odyssey, a bigger pack but it compresses down well for day trips from a base camp and does a great job of carrying all my gear into camp. Of course it is long since out of production, but my point is the frame, minimal as it is, really helps this old man carry up to 30 pounds of weight over potentially lengthy trails into a campsite (be it a base camp or one part of a circuit). The extra weight of the pack is much more than offset by the comfort versus a frameless pack.

My $.02 from Maine.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response. I will check out that article. I think I remember reading it. Not sure if my pops is your landlord, I do have family in Maine though. PM or email me at kbkading (at) gmail (dot) com if you'd like and I can tell you more.

Thanks!