Layering Advice

I don't think Houdini will keep out rain. Okay if any rain is minimal.

I would say too many layers. All you need is base layer, insulated layer, WPB rain jacket. Only wear insulated layer when you're not walking. Good down to 25 F or so. Below that you'll need something like R1, but the temperature you start needing that varies for different people.

If you have two insulated layers, you have an extra face fabric and lining fabric that weigh an extra few ounces, which may not be significant. You need enough filling for the temperature you'll be at.

This works for me but some people like more layers.

Man, no shame at all in using what you have. I bet that omni shield works just as well as what a lot of people on these forums use.

The one you described sounds like a pretty versatile system. I'd only add that if you are day hiking or backpacking in remote locations in winter( they sort of all are that time of year), I'd probably bring a little more for insulation. Like, maybe instead of investing in a nano vest, keep your eye out for a good deal on a down jacket. Some people swear by layering a synthetic over a light down since theoretically you could dry out the down that way if it gets wet, but I doubt many people have actually done that. Regardless, its probably a good idea to have a synthetic for the pnw, and I bet you could find a nice light down puffy that's way warmer and about the same weight as that nano vest. I'd say that will leave you better equipted for more wintery conditions. Montbell, and rab make stuff on par and often better than Patagonia and can be found for a good price if you know where to look (gear swap on bpl, campsaver's the shed, geartrade etc.).

The other layers you mentioned are good, but there are probably better, more breathable windshirt options than the houdini, which makes for a more versatile system while your on the move and generating a lot of heat. Also, though I'll often leave a waterproof shell behind in winter here in dry CO, I'd bring a shell with me every single day in PNW.

I didn't think the Houdini would do too well at keeping the rain out. I have a tarp and a poncho in my pack in case there's a real heavy downpour. If it got too heavy I would probably just stop and wait it out under my tarp unless I was in a situation where I needed to keep going, then I would throw on my poncho. I really only need something to fend off light rain. Maybe I should just keep my Columbia because it holds up alright in light rain.

Maybe I'm a little confused or indecisive as to what my R1 should be used for. It's advertised as a "mid" layer, but I've also seen it referred to as a base layer by some hikers. I haven't got to test it thoroughly to develop an informed opinion. I got my R1 just a few days ago and briefly wore it out in 50F degree weather with about 10 mph winds. I wore my Capilene 3 shirt underneath it and it seemed like it would do well enough at that temperature, although it was a little on the chilly side.

Because of this, I was planning on having a vest to throw on top of it while moving, and then throwing on micropuff jacket while I was stopped or in camp.

So I guess another question I have is; when should I be wearing my R1?

The Cap3, R1 Hoody, and Houdini are good, but…
– The two insulation pieces are duplicative and not that polyvalent.
– You need a real insulation piece for winter camp chores and rest breaks in the cold
– For NW climate, I think I would prefer 200-wt fleece to a synthetic puffy as my primary insulation piece.
– You need a hardshell for sustained rain:

Sticking with Patagonia, I'd build something like this:
Cap 3
R1 Hoody
Houdini
(this is gear for on the move down to ~20d)

Then add:
(1) R2 Fleece jacket (or NanoAir if you prefer that). This is your primary COLD-weather insulation and will take you down to 0d or below on the move. Nano Puff breathes worse than an R2 fleece, weighs something like an ounce more than an R2 fleece, and isn't warm enough for winter camp chores.

(2) A Goretex Paclite or eVent hardshell. This is for sustained rains and above treeline in the wind.

(3) A puffy/belay jacket to go over it all. This is to pull on at rest stops and for low-energy camp chores. Patagonia Fitz Roy, Montbell Mirage, RAB Neutrino, that sort of thing.

This combo will keep you comfortable down to at least 0d on the move, at rest, and in camp.

What's wrong with the Columbia Omnishield that you already own? Does it keep you dry? No shame unless it doesn't work.

Why both a vest and a parka? That seems like overkill. (Unless you're talking about winter overnights, wasn't clear on that)

I run pretty cold, even when I'm going fast. For winter, low-elevation day hikes around here this is what I find myself using:

synthetic s/s shirt (terramara)
old (circa late 90s) Patagonia running bottoms/tops. (I match!)
R2 vest
dri ducks rain jacket — super cheap, functional
synthetic puffy (golite coal) — rarely use because I rarely stop on day hikes, but feel better having along.

It might be nice to have a windshirt for the light rain. But I've gotten by OK w/out one just fine.

For dayhikes, do you care how much you're carrying? Most of my day hikes I do are for the purposed of training, so I tend to load up on layers while I'm at it. If I were trying to see how far I could go in just a day, I might focus more on a light layering system.

@ Serge, I had never considered a down jacket because I've always heard they were a no-go in the PNW, but what you're saying makes sense. Maybe I should invest in a vest for spring/fall hiking and invest into a down jacket for winter hiking.

I'll have to look into Montbell and RAB gear. I only looked at their brands briefly so I'll take a second look to see if what they have to offer. Thanks for the suggestions!

BTW, I think you can get away with your Columbia rain jacket or DriDucks for anything but actual alpine hikes/climbs. That is the last place I would look to make a change.

R1 usage: I use my R1 as my insulation layer beginning around 55d. Somewhere around 30-35d, I'll add the Houdini over it. This being on the move, with a thin synthetic baselayer underneath. R1 with a Houdini is a little furnace in combination.

@ Christian,

"For NW climate, I think I would prefer 200-wt fleece to a synthetic puffy as my primary insulation piece."

I was initially wondering if I should do this instead of a synthetic puffy. The way I perceived the R2 was that it basically provided the same function as the R1, so I thought I should have either the R1 or the R2 and not both in my pack.

I though "Would the R1 be warm enough? Should I get the R2 instead?"

I never considered getting both. The R1 fits so snug that I feel like the R2 would fit comfortably over it. Do you think I should bump it up and get the R3 or do you think the R2+R1 would suffice for most situations?

@ Katherine,

I tend to carry 15-25 pounds for training purposes as well. I eventually want to do a good stretch of the northern portion of the Pacific Crest Trail, so I pack accordingly minus a few things so I can acclimate.

Houdini is a great wind shirt! you wear this over your tshirt with down on top and hard shell on top… you will feel zero wind, and stay warm with out sweating. great layer system. r-1 is nice above 30 degrees.

R1 + R2 can work well together.

My winter system for a long time has been a baselayer, R1 hoody, MH Monkeyman or Woolpower 400g/m full-zip jacket(R2 equivalents), hardshell (if in extended wind/snow), and various puffies (for sitting still/resting). This will work well down to below 0.

I have found the R3/R4 fleeces pretty useless. The R3 is too hot to hike in unless it's really well and proper cold – like 5d or below (for me). So that relegates the R3 and R4 to insulation for static situations. And as they are heavy cold-weather pieces, down insulation garments (i.e. puffies/belay jackets) slay them for weight, comfort, and packability in those situations.

That isn't to say there aren't some good uses for R3/R4, but I haven't figured out how they would work in my four-season backpacking usage.

@ Christian,

So just to clarify, you're suggesting that I wear my Cap 3 as a base, my R1 as my mid, and an R2 as insulation and leave out a puffy?

Well, you'd mix and match based on length of trip and expected temps and expected variance.

If I were going on a summer trip weekend trips, I'd wear a t-shirt (and bring the R1 and Houdini) (70d day, anticipated 52d low)

In shoulder seasons, you could wear Cap3, R1, Houdini (and bring either the R2 or "the big puffy" as your camp wear.) (45d day, anticipated 30d low)

In stormy winter, you'd wear Cap3, (optional Houdini), R2, hardshell when needed (and bring the puffy for camp wear). (25d day, snow, anticipated 15d low)

In deep cold winter, you'd stick it all together: Cap3, R1, Houdini, R2, hardshell. (and bring the puffy for camp wear). (10d day, anticipated -5d low)

I guess the thing I am saying is — midweight insulation is midweight insulation; you wear it all day long on the move when it's really cold, but it can't be combined with your big camp puffy. You don't have to buy a big puffy if you don't plan on camping between say November and April, but it's a unique piece that gets carried all the time when you're on the move.

(BTW, all temp ranges are indicative for me, and I added a few degrees because I run hotter than average. You'd have to test combos yourself, but this is my overall insulation strategy for tops.)

My winter layering system is very similar. The only difference is a warmer static puffy (Mirage instead of Nano Puff).

Cap 3 base layer
Cap 4 hoody
R2 vest
Windshirt
Big puffy jacket (Montbell Mirage)
Hardshell

The R2 vest comes only if daytime temps will be <20F. R2 is a fantastic fabric, very breathable, but it doesn't get cold enough here very often for me to need it.

"Maybe I'm a little confused or indecisive as to what my R1 should be used for. It's advertised as a "mid" layer, but I've also seen it referred to as a base layer by some hikers."
What kind of day and nighttime temps are you talking about?
That R1 throws me off. To my way of thinking, your stuff matches up better without it, but I don't know the temps you plan to use them at.

It's already been alluded to in other responses, but the reason I say that is that your insulation layers don't seem adequate for the temps your active layers would be suitable for.
For instance, Cap3+R1+windshirt approximates(and is probably warmer than) what I wore last winter when it was 12F during the daytime, which doesn't strike me as Nano Puff territory, especially when it drops to 0F or lower after dark.

Freezing rain or snow … Thats the BIG question in the offseason

Down works fine for the latter, it takes special precautions for the former

As to your insulation, a nanopuff is about as warm as a mid weight fleece … So your insulation is really a fleece vest and a fleece jacket equivalent

Ask yourself if this is enough?

;)

You're getting confused because of the cacophony telling you which are "the best" of this and that. What you need to think about is to break it down into seasons. I've hiked in many different places across many seasons and it basically always breaks down into three things:

– hot weather gear
– shoulder season, and wet weather gear
– freezing weather gear

Generally on top of each one you simply add more or combine layers.

In hot weather, shorts and a t-shirt, a puffy and wind shirt + wind pants and a hat are just about all you really need. Unless you have lots of underbrush, in which case you should break out the standard hiking pants. And if it's hot enough where you are hiking, you could abandon the puffy, although potentially sacrificing some comfort/safety margin.

In the shoulder season things get tricky. Keep hot weather gear, but trade your shorts for hiking pants (or bring leggings), add some fleece and a warmer hat. I like a fleece vest or a light hoodless fleece top. Reason is I rarely wear the hood in shoulder season since it is too warm and I can wear a hat, and the hood is extra fabric to get wet in rain. If I go the vest route, I may instead simply choose to wear a long sleeve, hooded base layer, which really helps regulate temperature. Leggings are better than pants in the rain, as they regulate temperature better.

Finally, freezing and sub-freezing weather gear. Forget the wind pants, put long underwear under your lightweight softshell pants. Wear the R1. Bring better head gear and your wind shirt. Swap your puffy for a warmer one, or supplement it with a second. If I expect to spend a lot of time in wind and treeline, I consider eVent rain pants.

I personally never break out the R1 hoody except for trips where I might expect snow on the ground. In warmer temperatures, a wind shirt alone is often enough to regulate my temperature.