Feathered Friends Vireo UL – Will it work for the PCT?

Hey Ryan.

No experience with that bag, but I did my PCT thru in 2012 with a conservatively rated 40 degree quilt, supplemented with 2 ounces of overfill. I had dedicated sleeping top and bottoms and socks plus my Montbell thermawrap when needed. My pad was a neoair X-lite. My system was in retrospect a bit too minimal, but certainly bearable.

It snowed the week I left Campo (late April) and snowed in Manning Park on my final day (early September). I was cold. I wound up wearing all of my clothing plus my sil rain gear and polycryo groundsheet as improvised VBL system on more than a few nights. 2 years later and those cold stretches are still highly memorable.

I took a bag that I knew was comfy to 35 and bearable to about 25. Some nights I had it all the way zipped up. Some nights I had it unzipped like a quilt and lightly draped over me and I was still a bit too warm.

Only you can decide if a certain bag rating will work. You have to get out and try it at the temps you anticipate.

I can say that the design of the Viero would have driven me crazy since it would be impossible to use it as a quilt.

Ryan, I think it will be sub-optimal.

I've had a Vireo Nano for the last year, and while I really like the concept and excellent craftsmanship, it isn't the most versatile design. The upper third as it comes stock is pretty understuffed; with a light down coat like the Ex-Lite I think you could well get cold in the Sierra if temps go much below freezing. The limited venting options make it not so ideal (for me) when temps never get below mid 40s.

I ended up stuffing 3 more ounces of down into the upper five baffles of mine, turning it into a very warm and compact 20 degree bag. Great for spring and fall, less so for summer.

You really need a warmer puffy for the vireo. I used mine on the northern half of my PCT thru in 2013 with a marmot ama dablam jacket (over featured 20 ounce puffy). I was warm down to freezing with that and standard long underwear, added a bag liner to get down to ~20-25 degrees in northern WA. I would think a montbell frostline would work just as good and be lighter.

I loved the bag but sized it a bit short for my big feet, definitely err on the long side. I thought it was plenty versatile for warm weather since I would sleep without the jacket or with my arms sticking out, or just the jacket and the bag pushed down to my legs.

I am currently writing this with a Vireo size long next to me that I am planning on taking for the PCT this year. I’m leaving April 21. I’m about 50% sure its the right move for me, but I am having a hard time deciding.

I’m pretty certain the legs will be warm enough. They are rated to 25 degrees and sewn very close together. For my torso I have an 8.8oz puffy with 3.5 oz of 1000 fill down that is extraordinarily warm for the weight, Feathered friends recommends their EOS to pair it with, which seems very similar to the one I have. The bag fits me like a glove.

The main concern is that I’ll be too cold. I wont have any layers other than my puffy and a rain jacket if that does happen, and the puffy is already an integral part of the system. The bag uses horizontal baffles so you can shift the down to the top if you know you are in for a freezing cold night.

I have had lots of achilles tendonitis in both ankles and I’ve found the weight of my pack is extremely important in preventing reactive tendinopathy. If that happens the hike is pretty much over. I’m also someone who really doesn’t care much about being comfortable especially when hiking. I was close to buying a poncho tarp but I don’t have much tarp experience and don’t want to endanger myself or end  up begging to share other people’s tents.

I am thinking about pairing it with a bivy to add some breathing room in terms of how much warmth I need. I have an Aeon Li that is otherwise the perfect shelter but a bivy seems like it would add a few more degrees of warmth as well as facilitate more fun camping. However the bag is already completely sealed shut so I’m not sure how logical that is; it wont make the same difference as if I had a quilt that really needs draft protection for instance.

Am I not thinking this through correctly? I have only been able to test it in 40 degree weather but I was very warm. I think rolling the bag so my legs are in the torso section actually makes it much easier to vent than the Tanager because instead of being trapped in a 20 degree loft they will be trapped in a 45 degree loft. If it’s warmer I can also take the bag off and turn it around so the 45 degree part is on my legs. The torso has a nice circumference so I’ve found I can actually wrap my legs quite nicely with the bag flipped around like that.

I am going to try to test it in some colder weather if I can but ultimately I guess I have to make a decision and see how it works out.

I haven’t owned a Vireo but I have looked at it and I have a good bit of experience with the half bag and parka system.

To get the best from it you need a proper parka length warm top, perhaps not a winter warmth top but having coverage to the crutch is important. Also important is a creep strap in the crutch to stop the jacket riding up as you sleep. Secondly is the need for a really good hood, one that has enough room to cinch down tight when wearing a warm hat or three.

I carry an UL balaclava plus a warm beanie and in cold weather I add my big pile and goretex balaclava so the hood needs to be large enough to comfortable enclose all of that.

Or buy a good down balaclava if the jacket has a minimalist hood

Thanks the cinch strap idea is great.

The jacket I own isn’t very long but its not particularly short either. Maybe a cord with some clips will keep it down. I think the 45 deg part starts almost exactly at the same point of as the jacket but ill test it out. I suppose the bag riding down could also be a problem but I feel like the bag fits so well it shouldn’t be moving around too much.

The jacket I have does have a decent amount of down in the hood. There isn’t a huge amount of room but I will probably only be bringing a beanie with me. I’ve never had a cold head into the low 30s with a 30 degree quilt and no beanie. I was thinking with a beanie inside of a bivy it should be alright down to the mid to low 20s.

I am debating about getting no more than 2 oz of overfill added to the torso as well. Its a fine line though because too much fill and I am worried the system wont be versatile enough.

I think the main selling point for me is I have a hard time finding a bag that will fit me. I have freakishly wide shoulders and the rest of my body is more normal. I am  6’2″ tall and most quilts are either 6 feet long or 6’6″ long. Bags marketed as wide have lots of empty space in the hips and legs. This one really fits me like a glove. So when I compare the weight savings of this to say a Large / Wide Katabatic Palisade its about half a pound less weight. The current 20 degree bag I’m using weighs almost twice as much because it was really designed for someone 6’6″ and overweight.

I am somewhat worried that my jacket will get compressed in the shoulders though I will have to check. I do feel like they designed it so that someone could bring a much heavier down jacket to extend the range below 25 degrees. With a much loftier down jacket I’m pretty sure I would run the risk of compressing too much down on my sides because my shoulders are so massive.

In the back of my mind the only way I will be comfortable doing this is with a bivy like the MLD Superlight or Borah one. If I get the Borah one I’ll ask to put an extra layer of Argon where the back of my head is to keep it less drafty. I could also wrap my head in a wind shirt. I’ve never used a bivy though and can’t tell if it will be wasted weight, because I don’t think this bag will be as susceptible to drafts as a quilt. Supposedly they add around 5 degrees of warmth but I’m having a hard time figuring out if that is true for mummy bags or just quilts.

If the bivy does add that much warmth I think I should be good. I know lots of people who have done the PCT and similar with Palisades + Bivies and I feel like with this setup and a bivy I should be fairly close to a Palisade + bivy. I might be somewhat cold a few nights but I think overall it will be worth it.

I suppose I could also ask to have the first 45 degree baffle stuffed with more down to avoid the crotch problem you mentioned.

The crutch strap is simply to keep the jacket in place although I have modified several winter/mountaineering parkas with a large and insulated crutch piece for mountaineering back when I used to climb. The inner thighs and genital area being one of high heat loss.

I too have broad shoulders and a 117cm chest and have a lot of trouble finding sleeping bags big enough to fit, ones with a 66″ girth are tight on me in base layers. I need 72″ if I’m to wear down clothing inside a bag

I’ll take a picture if you want an idea of how i did mine?

“I have an Aeon Li that is otherwise the perfect shelter but a bivy seems like it would add a few more degrees of warmth as well as facilitate more fun camping.”

Adding warmth without too much weight is best done by 1) keeping your head well insulated 2) nice warm sleep socks 3) Seldom used, but a tight fitting tank top.

Why not have more fun camping on warm nights? Without a bivy? It just seems having a tent and a bivy both is somewhat redundant.

My 2 cents would be if you’re worried about cold, since you have a tent, bump up your sleeping pad, supplement with a GG 1/8” Maybe add a warmer jacket, but it will depend on snow year (looking light so far) and when you hit the Sierra. A by product of high snow is coming into camp a little colder. You could always carry a emergency bivy (lighter) and use it as a vapor barrier of sorts inside the bag then drop it at resupply after the Sierra. Full bivy does seem like weight in the wrong place.

Edward yeah I would really appreciate a picture, thanks! I’m not sure how close what I’m visualizing is to what you are describing. It seems pretty smart.

Why not have more fun camping on warm nights? Without a bivy? It just seems having a tent and a bivy both is somewhat redundant.

since you have a tent…  Full bivy does seem like weight in the wrong place

My plan was to sell my tent and carry a small 6oz tarp like the MLD Grace or similar. The Aeon is pretty drafty in my experience unless you pitch it very very low. There is a lot more air to heat up in there and there is a peak vent as well as perimeter netting and a fully mesh door.

My idea is that the tarp blocking wind + plus the bivy should be a few degrees warmer than a very well ventilated and spacious tent. But I have zero bivy experience and only a little bit of tarp experience so I’m not sure if this is a good assumption. I’ve seen posts by others saying that a bivy adds 3-7 degrees of warmth. If anyone has some experience in this department it would be awesome to get some feedback.

If the bivy does indeed allow me to bring a lighter sleeping bag I’ll actually save around 12 ounces. I think my choice of a bag for the tent would be a Long / Wide Katabatic Alsek 22. The Alsek has almost 50% more down but it covers a lot more surface area and it is susceptible to drafts. It is also probably overkill. I doubt I would need to wear my puffy with the Alsek except on the coldest nights. So the 3.5 oz down in my puffy will be wasted with that setup.

Paul, I am planning on taking a cut down wide Neoair XLite and a 1/8″ thinlight pad so I think I should be good in that department.

I think maybe the move is to try this setup out and bring a couple of extra layers in case I’m much colder than I imagine I’ll be. If it works I can send the layers home. If I am cold I could eventually add an ounce or 2 of fill to the torso of the bag. Mine came in at .5 ounces under spec so it might be missing some down I’m not sure.

Aside from saving weight I’ve found I enjoy cowboy camping over tents and from past experience I will probably not be pitching the tent on 90% of nights if I decide to bring it.  Having a 16.5 oz tent in my pack that I use 10 percent of the time seems like a pretty substantial waste. The bivy will enable me to bring a smaller tarp and no groundsheet. I think I would most likely lay on top of it unless its cold and windy or buggy in which  case I would crawl in. I’ve also found that after about 2 weeks into a thru hike I can sleep pretty much anywhere so I’m not nearly as worried about space and comfort in choosing my gear as I once was.

Bear in mind this duvet parka is OldSkool and over 30 YO

Am I the only one who thinks this Vireo plus the Mont-bel Mirage is the near ideal combo? 30oz for a very versatile system for someone who likes to stay awake for a few hours rather than falling asleep as soon as they stop walking.

I think the Vireo and the OP’s current ex light anorak is not enough for sure, though.

Thanks for the pics Edward thats a much more sophisticated idea than what I was thinking of.

I asked Feathered Friends about overfill and they wrote back that the Vireo has a 3/4″ baffle on the torso and a 2 1/2″ baffle on the legs. So you can’t overfill the torso with more than one ounce of down. Overfilling the torso + a down jacket (EOS with 3.7oz of 950+ fill) apparently would bring the comfort rating of the torso to around 30.

So you really do need a warmer jacket to  make it comfortable to 25 especially if you don’t add any overfill.

I am planning on ordering a Tanager and having them remove enough fill from the torso to make the bag 25/20 or 30/20. With the jacket I should be good to about 20. This will give me more flexibility in warmer temperatures than a straight 20 zipperless bag as I’ve already mentioned.

Per their advice I am ordering the bag first to make sure it fits before I get it customized.

The Tanager is a skinny bag, a full 150mm narrower than the Vireo from the details on the website

If I was sewing a new crutch panel it would be a lot better, my sewing skills have improved; also I would use a 1/2 ounce of down and not a generic polyester [ actually maybe both] but it worked.

I’ve slept in that parka down to -30C with a half bag plus a big bivvy bag when I was younger with a proper metabolism A DIY half bag with a lot of down in it, a cut down Alpine sleeping bag.

Yeah its a 4 inch difference. I am pretty sure I’ll be able to squeeze into it but that is why I’m ordering it first before wasting my money.

In my tests I’ve been pretty surprised at how versatile the Vireo is. Hopefully the Tanager isn’t a sweat coffin.

That sounds like a pretty cool setup, the parka looks like its still in decent shape.

Squeezing not such a good idea for this type of sleeping arrangement, you lose the dead air space “Free” insulation between the parka and the bag, it isn’t actually lighter or more efficient. I’ve done it too and I am now working on a new synthetic sleeping shell full 1840mm / 72inches in girth for this reason