Layering High Loft Insulation in Winter

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I haven't dealt with those temps but I like a big oversized puffy vest on top of a puffy hoody.

I've been thinking a lot about the definition of "insulation." Trying to categorize the perceived/practical warmth of materials that aren't down feathers is interesting. Things like wool sweaters, synthetic shirts, and fleece are insulative in my winter kit, depending on how I use them.

Fleece is so good, I just ignore the voice in my head that tries to count ounces when I pull my fleece out of the closet. My favorite piece is the 8oz Patagonia Micro-D Quarter Zip, which I do consider ultralight and a wonderful warmth/weight ratio.

My synthetic puffy is 16oz and my Patagonia Snap-T Synchilla (a "casual" fleece) is 19oz, and the warmth seems to be approximately even underneath a shell. It's close enough in weight that unless volume is at a premium, I consider the two interchangeable and I often grab the fleece when I expect to be perspiring or a bit damp (wet snow).

My synthetic puffy is always paired with the 8oz fleece for warmth, and it goes a long way. Those two together do much more than either by themselves. That kind of flexibility makes me think that I'll never go with a single down puffy.

I'm in Camp #2

My rational is that having layers is more versatile than having one dedicated very warm layer. I travel in temps ranging from 60F to 10F in the winter, therefore having layers to cover a range of 50 degrees is essential.

I use a long sleeve Patagonia merino 1 shirt, Patagonia Piton hooded fleece (or Capilene 4 1/4 zip), Western Mountaineering hooded Flash down jacket, Patagonia Alpine Houdini.

I'm in camp 2. For a couple years I used a rab xenon and rab infinity. This year I'm using a Patagonia nano air & either a rab infinity or bergans sastrugi (11+oz down) depending on the conditions.

I like having a light synthetic as an intermediate puffy layer for moving in when the conditions get gnarly, or if my action layers have gotten damp from perspiration or sustained snow. I find I can push moisture out of my action layers effectively by working hard wearing a light synthetic. I've only done thisa couple of times, but its given me a lot of confidemce in synthetics. I haven't tested it for comparison, but knowing how much heat it takes to do this, I think this would be a more effective method than one heavy synthetic belay jacket for stationary use.
Its also nice to have a close fitting light piece for mobility, and extra warmth (without over heating) when weather gets bad or if I'm having to travel at night. This has come in handy most ice climbing in rocky national park where the wind gets really brutal & I'm not moving that fast, but for the downs too, when I'm BC skiing.

The nano air IMO is pretty much made for this job. The increased breathability & stretch make it perfect as a warm layer to move in or to use in combo with a heavier belay parka.

I like the infinity for its packability and high warmth per weight. I don't think its quite enough on colder winter days on its own, but with the light synthetic i've been fine in some pretty cold temps. I'll probably use the sastrugi for multi day trips this winter, but stick with the infinity for day trips .

Sometimes 1, sometimes 2, depends on if Becky is with me or not. I bought her a NB Fugu with the hopes to keep her warm and comfortable during colder weather trips, but when it gets colder than 15* F she usually won't go. So when it gets down near 0 or minus temps, i will borrow the Fugu.

Otherwise, i do one of two things in most other cases. Stoic Hadron Anorak combined with a UL down vest, and windjacket big enough to fit over both.

Or, if i want some extra insulation while active, i'll leave the down vest and bring my 2.3 oz MYOG, 2.5 oz Apex, front only insulated vest with super breathable 30D nylon shell/lining. Since where i most often hike doesn't tend to have a lot of elevation gain/loss, it can come in handy even in some non extreme temps. I don't consider 2.3 oz, and a super small size, much of a penalty at all.

Baselayers are either some or a combo of the following: Wool-synthetic blend, Cap 4/MEC T3, and/or fishnet. If it's really cold, i will do a combo of the 1st with one of the latter two. As soon as i get the 70% polyester and 30% silk fabric i ordered, i'm looking forward to trying that out.

Camp 2, though those temps are very rare here(a good reason for being in camp 2, as a heavier down jacket would see very little use).

I run so much warmer than most that the "required" fill weights I see for low temps seem a little crazy to me.
Coldest temps that I was out in last winter were a few single digit lows, and about -2F one night courtesy of the polar vortex.
Capilene 3 crewneck, LL Bean Fitness Fleece 1/4 zip, and a FA Microtherm hoody with ~2.5oz of fill was the heaviest combo I wore up top, and I was comfortable around camp at 10F with that.

I've done both depending on the objective and conditions, but I don't often get out overnight in true winter conditions. More often #1 though.

For Rainier and Shasta in spring/summer – Cap 1 T, R1 hoody, OR Incandescent hoody (18 oz down belay jacket) and OR Axiom Shell which can go either over or under the down jacket. This is basically #1. For backcountry skiing in tahoe (day trips only so far), basically the same system but trade the shell for a softshell if it's not precipitating. In milder temps when you need a shell, it seems more efficient to use the shell for extra warmth on the move (when needed) rather than bringing 2 puffies plus a shell.

For colder/longer trips I'd consider adding a light synthetic layer like the OR Cathode (similar concept to the Patagonia Nano-air but in a hybrid construction). This could go over the R1 hoody while moving, and then the down belay jacket goes over it at night or when stopped. Haven't used this combo together yet but seems viable. I think I'd still bring the warmer Incandescent rather than an ultralight down jacket as it is MUCH warmer for a small weight penalty – and I get cold easily so warmth is important to me.

2 – thinking about 1.

I used to bring a Atom LT Hoody and a Alpine Light Hoody to layer, with the Atom for if it was really cold on the move. I got gifted an Atom SV, and can also layer it over the Alpine Light. I like the idea of added flexibility of temperature ranges, the extra protection and potential moisture management the synth can provide (like the layering of a synth bag over a down bag), and the fact that I can use the pieces separately during other, warmer seasons.

However, I run/hike fast and am very warm when moving. During rests I run very cold.

While moving I have never had anything more than a Cap R4 equivalent and a windshirt on down to -10˚C. I can imagine around -20˚C (-4F) I would be able to use an R1 under my windshirt. My moving temperature I have really dialled in with a great winter wind shirt that allows me to regulate my body temperature very well.

As a consequence the Atom LT is a bit too warm for moving scenarios, and never gets used. I guess if I move super slow (being hurt, or during rock climbing) it could still be functional (I have not been technical rock climbing far below 0˚C though).

For me during rests at -10˚C to -20˚C the Alpine Light or Atom SV by themselves are not warm enough. I generally only take very short breaks, so I have just dealt with it. But I like a bit more insurance for during white-outs, or if I would be lost/hurt etc. In the winter I think this is necessary.

So I am rethinking the layering strategy a bit. I might be better off with one very fat puffy that is easier to put on/off when on a fiercely cold windy ridge while dealing with gloves, fuel/hydration etc. Easier on/off means faster restart means less heat loss. Lighter weight. At the cost of the flexibility and double use of existing garments of course.

In general though, I think putting a synth over a puffy is a great way to extend the temp range and give yourself some flexibility and before mentioned added functionality.

Ito – good point – the "insurance" is also part of why I bring the bigger puffy in colder weather. If you get hurt/sick or a big storm comes in, the additional warmth may be very important. I live in California, so my "big" puffy is not that big or warm compared to parkas designed for really cold conditions, but seems like enough for the weather that I typically recreate in.

Just curious, what is your favorite windshirt for winter? I will be trying the cap4 plus houdini combo this winter, I think that might work well for BC skiing on the up. Then add a puffy for breaks and a shell or softshell for the down.

My trips are in 3 distinctly different climates (Michigan, Colorado, Ireland and the Uk), also I like having enough warm clothing to hang around outside for a couple of hours cooking, and talking crap with my buddies, I run hot on the move but when stopped or sleeping feel the cold a lot.

For IrelandUk (and Michigan shoulder season) I would be teaming up an Arcteryx Atom Sv with a MB Mirage, this is good to about 15F.

From about 15-0F in MichiganColorado I would be using a MB Permafrost, I would also be packing an Arcteryx Nuceli.

When its gets below 0F in MichiganColorado I would be packing a Rab Neutrino plus, if its going to be below -10F I would add the Mirage or Ex light anorak in to the mix, I did pick up an EB Peak XV for this role but the loft is much the same as the Neutrino Plus, I would be tempted to get a Parka with 15+ oz of down for when it stupid cold but have not come across any that I fancy.

I'm in camp 2 mostly by default.

Here is the layering system I've been using this winter. So far temperatures have been between 5F and -10F:

Bottom
MEC T-3 long underwear
Power Stretch Fleece Tights

Top (while active)
MEC T-3 hoody
MEC Vega hoody (R1 Equivelant)
MEC RD windshirt

In Pack
Rab Zenon
Bergans Sastrugi (big puffy)

It's worked quite well. My biggest problem is the same issue Ito noted. When moving, I run warm. Even at -10F it's too warm to use the Zenon, which means it ends up sitting in my pack being dead weight. And even though my wind shirt is quite breathable, when i'm moving quickly i'm still getting moisture build up in it.

I'm considering swapping out the wind shirt for power stretch fleece. It cuts some of the wind, and if it's too warm the moisture will push right through fleece, freeze on the outside, and simply needs to be brushed off before I throw other layers on.

Allen –

Because I do mostly higher aerobic stuff I have looked for more breathable wind shirts. Changed from the hard shell kind of wind shells (Tachyon, Houdini, Squamish) to more soft shellish wind shirts. Not saying these are always more breathable, but the ones I looked at are. The wind shirts I am wearing now lightweight, but a bit more heavy than the UL weight shirts. More breathable, perhaps too breathable for general use, but for high aerobic activities/me the added breathability makes sense. I find I wear them literally always.

For three season I use a Japanese market only shirt from TNF Japan. It is made for runners, breaths more than anything I know, and on top of that has added vent panels to let it breath even more.

For Winter/Alpine conditions I use Montura's Training Anorak.
http://www.planet-endurance.ch/product/montura-training-anorak-celeste-men/

It is made for racing, is thicker, more robust than a normal wind shirt. So less fragile, good for climbing or high altitude or winter. I like that it has different fabrics panels for more/less breathability. There is a two way neck/torso zipper that runs from your neck to your belly button so you can vent from below and keep your neck area warm. Has a big but thin, non-bulky pocket inside on the belly to keep gloves or whatever in. Since it is an anorak but has a crazy down to the belly button zipper I can put the upper off from the arms, and wrap it around my waist if too hot. While not opening up pack, holding on to garment in high wind condition, repacking etc.

Hope that doesn't derail the thread too much.

For the people that think their synths are too hot on the move, perhaps a Rab Vapour-Rise Lite Vest or Hoody is an idea?
Pertex Equilibrium shell that breathes to no end, and a thin micro layer of fleece inside.
I just wanted something more robust for winter but can imagine temp wise this might be good for those that run too hot because of their output.
http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/mens-clothing-vapour-rise/vapour-rise-lite-vest.html

– down under synth – exl under atom lt …. Good down to 20-25F …. The atom is used for quick stops …. The exl goes under the synth for prolongued stops/camp … The majority of time the exl stays in the dry bag until needed

– eb downlight hoody under OR chaos …. Good for colder … Same principle as above

The key is to use the synth poofay the majority of the time and only take the down out when you are stopping for long periods … And to put the down under the synth

This

– exposes the synth to conditions while protecting the down im the dry bag

– allows optimum moisture managememt on down under the synth … So the synth takes the brunt of the snow and body vapour will move outwards to the synth

– it allows redundancy in winter in that you arent totally screwed if one gets soaked/damaged/blown away for some reason

– allows the warmest and dryest layer (high fill power down) to be closest to you

Note that this only works with "sweater" type down poofays for a "down booster" system …

When its really cold you use a light synth under a large down poofay … But thats something i havent done in awhile, wonders of a coastal climate

;)

Steven M,
do you consider yourself as rather cold blooded, or in constrast as rather warm blooded, or neutral ? Because a MB Mirage has in my calculations a thermoneutral T° for a thermicneutral person of ± 16°F.

"Good for colder"

Define colder ? 10-15°F ? Lower ?

OK, so I live in New Orleans and yesterday it was 70*. Before that I lived in Costa Rica. That’s how much I know about very cold weather. Heck, a Stoic Hadron (+/- 0.5in loft, 850fp down) and a t-shirt are all I needed in the day during last cold snap.

I’m keeping an eye on this thread–I hope to venture north some day.

I’ve read that one use of the windshirt is to wear it UNDER the puffy to prevent, or slow down, the puffy from trapping perspiration.

For temps of 32f to 0f at night here’s what I’d try. I’m trying to use what I already have so the only gear to purchase would be a puffy vest:

–Top when moving:
t-shirt
med-weight thermal
windshirt

–Top while NOT moving, add on top of above:
2in thick vest
.5in hadron

–Bottom:
mid-weight thermal bottoms
Convertible pants, take legs off when needed.

Sleeping is another story altogether. I have a quilt that could take me to freezing but not below. Though first I’d think about puffy pants and booties to sleep in and if that did not work then about a new bag–seems more versatile.

I'm in camp 2, although I wouldn't put it all the way in "ultralight down layer" category, since it's just a walmart down jacket I bought for $9 on clearance (around 12oz). I'm a big fan of rain jackets for heat retention as well. There are often big swings in daytime/nighttime temps, and of course whether you're idle or moving, so being able to tweak the specific insulation can be really helpful.

It has limits, of course. -10°F and lower, adding more layers just makes a tighter fit, so there's definitely a place for the thicker stuff if you go out in those temps.

Hi Woubeir,

Good question, I say I am neutral.
I prefer to be a bit conservative with
Ratings now as before I pushed it
and was cold.

Stephen

"It has limits, of course. -10°F and lower, adding more layers just makes a tighter fit, so there's definitely a place for the thicker stuff if you go out in those temps."

I think that is the issue for me too. I will buy a bigger puffy for colder conditions, but I will still be possible to layer my bigger Atom SV over it.

I lean toward camp #1. For me, the insulation requirements for actively carrying a pack and being inactive in camp are very different. While moving, staying cool and not sweating too much is a problem, so I tend to not use much insulation, although I do carry a light layer in case it gets colder and/or windier. Once in camp, the thicker parka comes on as I start to cool down quickly.