When is a frameless pack practical?

A frameless pack is never truly frameless because you should be using a sleeping pad as a frame. Having said that, depending on the hipbelt, such a system works for me to the low 20 lb range.

There is much more to the suspension of a pack and how it carries than just a frame. Some packs have frames but poor integration with the hipbelt and shoulder harness, rendering a very poor carry at any load.

Yeah, I should have mentioned I have some limited experience with 'frameless'. I always used CCF as a frame. My experience though is limited to very short trips of one and two days, on longer hikes such as the thru I'm setting off for in late march I've always gone framed.

You bring up another question though I had which I completely forgot to inquire about. I've heard reports that the weight transfer of the arc frame to the hips really isn't all that hot. Was I informed correctly?

Its practicle anytime the user is comfortable enough to use it.

Lots of variables that impact final user happiness. Cost, how its packed, torso length of pack, wt carried, hipbelt, bulk, complexity, etc.

There really isnt that big a difference between UL framed packs, lightweight framed packs, and frameless packs, as it applies to comfortable carried weights. About 10-15 lbs max difference between a sack and $400 pack.

Above 30 lbs, you really need a more substantial hipbelt construction than even lightweight framed packs have.

The Arc is a great pack IMO. One of the best things is getting a custom torso length. This makes a huge difference. My weight is always on my hips, 100% with my arc. But the pack doesnt lean backward away from shoulders, at all. It has no need for load lifters whatsoever.

The ARC hipbelt has a ~25lb max limit in my opinion.

I almost always use a frameless pack. For total pack weights under about 15 pounds, I am happy with a Zpacks Zero with only a webbing waist belt; no weight at all is supported on the hips. From about 15 pounds to 25 pounds, I use a frameless Zpacks pack the supports some weight on a hipbelt; it works fine. I very rarely carry more than that, but would want a frame, I think, beyond 25 pounds. I have used my friend's Arc blast on short spurts; its felt comfortable, but has a balance more like the old external frame packs to me.

A lot also depends on how long you're carrying the weight, not just your maximum weight.

An 8 lb base weight, 5 days of food at 1.5 pounds per day and 2 quarts of water is 19.5 lbs – totally comfortable for any frameless pack with a reasonable hip belt.

The same list with 5 quarts of water, say for a long dry stretch in the desert, is 25.5 lbs – probably not fun but in a few hours you'll have drunk several quarts and the pack will carry fine again. By the third or fourth day out, the same water carry will be in the sub 20 lb range and not a problem. So realistically for a 5 day trip, you'd be looking at a few hours of an uncomfortably heavy pack.

You can repeat this exercise with different base weights, food weights and water carries and see how long you're actually carrying max load.

Also keep in mind that the arc blast may be the lightest framed pack but it's expensive and not as durable as frameless options.

I use a Zpacks Blast, which has no frame. It works fine for me with a total load up to 35 pounds, although I normally keep the total to 25 pounds. It has a lumbar pad to help out.

–B.G.–

I've done many 7 day trips with my frameless pack (MLD Burn) and haven't used a framed pack in years.

For me, 7 days = 24-25 pounds and is a bit heavy for my frameless pack and I feel it a bit on my shoulders. Certainly nothing too uncomfortable, just not ideal. After a day or two the weight is all back on my hips and the pack carries comfortably. I'd rather shoulder a little weight for a day or two than be stuck with a framed pack for the entire trip. I suspect the newer Burn would carry the weight just fine as MLD has increased the width of the shoulder straps.

Unlike most frameless pack users, I don't try to stiffen the pack with a pad. I think trying to create a frame in a frameless pack defeats the purpose of going frameless. I like to be able to shape my frameless pack to fit my back perfectly and if you add a ridged pad you can't do this and it carries poorly. I also find that adding a pad to stiffen the pack moves the load away from your back and once again, you lose that feeling of being one with your pack (very zen :).

I have an older Gossamer Gear Gorilla, and I find that it's always more comfortable with its removable 3.6 oz frame. I've tried it without the frame and both with and without rigid pads for support. I keep the shoulder straps a little loose for back ventilation, and the frame helps keep the pack off my back too.

Wow, everyone here offers great insight, I'm really digging this forum.

I'm actually going to be doing an AT thru, I want to knock it out of the way before the trail gets even more crowded. Therefore water and food isn't really my primary concern. On only one maybe two sections can I see myself hauling more then four days of food, I tend to move at a good pace and I never liked having that 5th days worth weighing on my knees. Hence why 17 pounds is really the upper limit and even that will be a rarity.

Honestly I think I talked myself out of a frame before I even created this thread, but I value input from others. It's reassuring to hear people routinely haul comfortably the sort of loads I will be contending with and even more using the same style pack.

Now the question is what pack should I go with… Ugh.

Thanks again, and I'm still interested in what others opinions are.

Frye

Having toyed with both framed and frameless packs for loads of around 20lbs the only deciding factor should be which fits YOU best.
Both types of pack are capable of that sort of load easy, thereafter it's just about features like lids, pockets, how you carry your water etc.
On longer hikes I like a bag that's more than a grocery sack and framed so it will have loads of external pockets straps etc compaired to a weekend trip where I use a Z packs Zero with no bells and whistles…..

After I learned how to pack my Golite Jam properly, I have used it more satisfied than my previous Deuter pack. Maybe it is the increased flexibility. The weight never is 100% on my hips but since the pack fits my back reall well this is not a problem. Actually, I like the "distribution" of the weight on shoulders and hips. W/ my Deuter pack, I always felt less mobile and ended up having knee pain very often. Since I use the Golite Jam, this problem has gone.
I find the Jam comfortable up to approx. 12kg (~25lbs). I think if you really stay below 20lbs for the most part of your trip, you should be more than fine going frameless. However, take some time to figure out how to pack your bag properly in order to achieve the most comfortable fit for you.

For me, never. I established a suspended mesh backpanel, which necessitates a frame of some sort, as my #1 criteria several years ago. I won't even consider a pack that doesn't have one.
With the heavier loads, I appreciate the frame, and with lighter ones-who cares? When my total weight is ~12#(with water) for a summer outing, will I really notice dropping a pound from a pack that I can't tell I'm carrying to begin with? No, but I definitely notice not having a river of sweat running down my butt all day.

With loads that light I would go frameless. One of the Best choice I ever made. I also ditched the hipbelt. I do use GG hipster to keep maps snacks fire starter and what not close to me. Try it..If you are conditioned enough it shouldn't be a problem and will probably be more comfortable for you while hiking.

Lighter weight loads but there's also the tendency for frameless packs to roll cylindrically with too much stuff. May bug some people, others not.

Add: the old version of the Granite Gear Virga had an optimal solution IMO, and that was a bit of stiffness (think by sewing and not foam like the old Vapor frames) where the back contacted the pack. This allowed a rolled up sleeping pad to be used as a barrel like virtual frame without the dreaded roll. Not sure about the updated one.

Since the Jam is pretty much off the market, what would be an equivalent pack? I always meant to pick one up but if I remember correctly the one time I tried they were out of stock.

I'm halfway considering seeing if I could get a nice frameless built by Zimmerbuilt but I have the feeling the cost would run pretty high even compared to companies such as HMG and Zpacks.

Mountain Laurel Designs makes some great frameless packs. ULA-Equipment has the CDT as well. Both the CDT and MLD Prophet (for example) provide over 50L of total space for under 20oz.

Why not get the Arc Blast, and if you feel like going frameless just take the frame out? That would drop the pack to perhaps 12 oz.

J R,

Because I'm not entirely convinced. I wasn't keen on the framed because I don't like the mesh on the backside and frameless I'm not sure it's the best option. Not a dig on Zpacks, I like a lot of their gear and will buy more, I just don't feel like their pack is right for me. I may reconsider to be honest and I may end up going that way, but as of now I'm not sure it's a fit. Sometimes I feel as though a lot of the praise on the pack is based solely on the weight of it.

I could very well be wrong though and that's why I'm asking for the opinion of others.

I really don't want anyone to think I have a problem with the design, I'm just not sure it's for me. I'm open to other options but need to know what they are, and when it comes to frameless I haven't been able to find much up to date information.

They become practical when you don't want to deal with a frame.
I have no clue what my Conduit weighs and I don't care. It's comfortable. They can make a much lighter internal frame pack and I probably wouldn't buy it.

For some trips, I am carrying 40 lbs or so and I switch to a really burly internal framed pack. That is when a frameless pack becomes impractical.

frameless are ideal for summer AT trips, imo since you need almost no gear. Supporting most of the previous posters 20 lb limit suggestion, I think the actual manufacturers have a recommended upper limit for each pack which will roughly fit this. "Toughing it out" on your back may actually reduce mileage if it prematurely fatigues you.

That being said couple considerations:

Due to lack the foam pad requirement, frameless packs might not be ideal for hammock or inflatable pad folk. While I use a foam pad anyways, at least two important sections of the AT require Shelter sleeping on wood planks… Inflatable pads are very nice here.

Hip belt systems are my main selection criteria on a frameless pack. I've heard it also one of the most common modifications frameless backpackers make (sewing on a better one).

I switch to my heavier framed pack when I'm carrying heavier winter or mountaineering gear sets.

I've been using a frameless ULA CDT for several years (mine is just under 18oz the way I have it). Took it on the AT in 2012 and just used it on the Tahoe Rim Trail and Tahoe Yosemite Trail (with a bear can for the last 4.5 days) this summer. I took a framed ULA Circuit on the PCT in 2009, but if I were to do it again, I'd just take the frameless pack. I've found that if it feels uncomfortable, I need to repack it. Properly packed and you have the right small/lightweight gear, a frameless pack can be comfortable to use. I don't notice the weight much when doing a a 6day food carry or carrying 4.5L. I often do a mid 20's total weight carry. I've maxed it out at 27lbs which wasn't bad for the short time I had to carry it. With my gear, I could do a 10 day carry in terms of the pack storage space, though I doubt I'll ever do so when thinking about just how much weight that would be. Pack is at its most comfort when under 25 lbs total weight. I use a Gossamer Gear foam Torso Pad as the pack support; sometimes add their Sit Pad to go with it as an extra section for the pad.

I admit to have looked at possibly using a framed Zpacks Arc Blast pack, but decided to not go that route since cuben fiber packs just aren't as durable. I like cuben fiber and have used it for shelters and stuff sacks since 2008. But given the material's weakness to abrasion, I don't see one holding up for several years as a backpack that receives heavy use; especially on a trail like the AT where you frequently have to slide or scoot down tall boulders. My non-cuben fiber ULA packs have held up very well. I have enough experience with other MLD products to think their packs would hold up as well and have considered getting their Burn pack for shorter trips. You could easily do the triple crown with one of their packs. That said, for a pack that will receive lighter use then a long trail like the AT, a cuben fiber pack will likely work fine.

I'm not sure about current packs – but here are some insights that may help you.

I think the granite gear vapor trail was the best pack I used on the AT. It had a 1/8" piece of flexible plastic sheet along the back as a frame.
This just made it easier to pack by holding itself open/upright — it didn't really transfer weight like a frame.
The reason the vapor trail worked so well was because the pack was S-curved to fit into your lower back, and it had a great hip belt and good shoulder straps.
The rear straps made a great place to put you foam "rest break" pad (which many AT hikers use several times a day).
The water bottle pockets were too high for me to reach.

The go lite jam was a pretty good runner up for me.
Again, the secret was the S-curved back, a good hip belt, and decent shoulder straps.
The jam's hip belt was a little floppy though, and this allowed the pack to bounce a little when walking.
The rear pocket was super convenient.
The water bottle pockets were low enough to remove and replace a water bottle when walking.

The REI flash (old version) was a good 3rd place pack.
This one had a medium stiff (removeable) plastic framesheet, and no wire in the hip belt.
The hip belt was better (less floppy) than the Jam, and the shoulder straps were about the same.
The stuff pocket was good for rain gear, snacks, etc – but not as easy to use or as high capacity as the Jams pocket.
The water bottle pockets on the 50liter were part of the stuff pocket – and didnt allow me to access water while walking.

The flash pack actually carried BETTER as a frameless pack.
I think this was because it could be squished into an S-curve shape, and then the lowe section of the pack could be sucked into the lower back with the hip belt, and everything else just sat on the shelf that this created.

I typically carry 22-27 pounds – and need to lcarry all the weight on my hips due to a bad lower back disc.
I don't carry more than 35 because my hip and leg joints can't take it – no matter which pack I use :)

But as long as I pack the weighty items close to my spine, and use the compression straps to keep the pack as flat to my back as possible, and rigid enough to lean against a tree without sagging (noticeably) — then I don't think a frame makes much difference.
Even an inflatable pad works fine as a virtual frame. Fold it so there are 3 layers along your back and it's 1/8 of the way inflated. It will be rigid when you cinch the pack's compression straps tight.

Ps. Foam pads suck on shelter floors. Many people carry a 48" CCF pad for breaks and dinner on wet ground, and cold nights – AND a 2.5" inflatable for sleeping in shelters. Some even carry a full length foam pad instead of a 48" one. Mid day naps are much easier that way :)

Pps: After you walk 500 miles, youll be in much better shape and an extra 2-3 pounds for a frame, better hipbelt, and 10-15 more liters of storage space won't be anything you'll notice. So get enough volume to carry LOTS of food. Your appetite will triple or quadruple.

I tried a lot of ways of packing frameless, and standardized on ccf folded flat against back, with sleep quilt in stuffsak sideways at bottom to lock it in place and make round shape for lower back. Then pack normally. Never could stand a burrito pack. On some packs, loose pack quilt is ok too.

That said, i also always found the 4 or 5 oz penalty for a lightweight frame totally worth it. Even on a pavk like the Ohm, 2oz hoop makes a big digfetence. Biggest thing is it gives load lifters something to pull against to pull pack in close to back, while still carrying weight on hips. Ive never cared for carrying weight on shoulders if there was an option.

Below 15, doesnt really matter.

Another benefit of the arc, dont need ccf for back padding or pack structure.

"So get enough volume to carry LOTS of food. Your appetite will triple or quadruple."

Last year section hiking, I cringed by the number of zero days thru hikers were burning on resupply days (every 2-3 days they'd resupply). A number of others got into serious trouble when their resupply box or "bounce box" they mailed didn't show up on time, or showed up at the wrong waystation. I heard one guy got into a fight with a hostel owner and decided to hike another 28 miles without food/calories so that he could resupply from someone else. People on the trail were pretty worried about him, said he looked pretty disoriented when he set out.

I support carrying extra food if you so choose. If not for you, so you can be in a position to help others.