family tent and gear upgrade

Hey Catherine, I find myself in a similar boat with you looking for a family backpacking tent. My wife and I just had our first baby a week ago and its never to early to start planning :).

I'm considering a 4 person tent because I want to have plenty of space to hangout in the tent if needed (weather or just because kids love it) and to accommodate another child years down the road. The TT Hogback is the one I think I have chosen (space, weight, price, freestanding with the second pole(?) ). I also considered the BA Copper Spur or Fly Creek UL4.

An discussion on two (and there are more discussions on family backpacking tents).

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=65832

Anyway, enough about me. If I understand you correctly you want:
-increase in space
-decrease in weight (what is current tent's weight)
-light enough for solo (what is light enough for solo for you?)
-durably for kids (IMO no Fly Creek then, fabric is too thin) How much horseplay will go on in the tent? This may also impact other purchases like sleeping bags.
-take on bad weather
-freestanding would be a plus

Sounds about on par with everyone looking for a family tent lol. For me the Hogback looks like the best option but you will need to decide which factors are most important and which you can bend on.

Lastly, do you really need to upgrade your tent now? Can you postpone and upgrade other items that may save you more weight per dollar? Seems like your current option is not a bad one and this may be why it is so hard to find a clearly better option.

More forum discussions:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=47107

Convenience-wise, I like a free-standing tent, too. But don't fear a staked / guyed tent too much. I've BPed and camped all over the world and especially in California. Even on a granite surface, you can use sticks and pebbles in cracks to secure guy lines or carry over a few large rocks. Even on ice, you can heat the tent pegs, press them in, and have VERY solid anchors (it's helpful to have an ice ax along to chip them out again). In sand or loose snow, a dead man anchor or buried stuff stake can be as substantial as you need.

But spinning the tent around for reasons of wind or sun? Yeah, that is always easiest in a free-standing tent.

The TT Hogback does not become freestanding with the X pole (well, not by my definition) but that extra pole gives more wind resistance and helps keeping the fly taut in heavy rain.
With that, you can also pick it up and move it in a similar fashion to a fully freestanding tents but you must stake those corners down because those are vital for the integrity of the shelter.
I shot a short video to show a simple way of overcoming the situation where the exact point you should stake them in is not stake friendly :
Staking a difficult spot

Here is a clip on how to handle that Pitch Lock corner so that your tent is set up taut :
Pitch Lock corner

This is the same for several TT shelters.

A "freestanding" tent means that when you set it up it can stand on its own, NOT that it does not need to be staked to be secure. A freestanding tent that isn't secured can be lifted away by a decent wind, and even with some of your gear in it (especially UL gear). Plenty of videos of that happening, here's just one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ies9JFWiBA

If you use trekking poles then a tarptent is a great option. You already are carrying sturdy poles so you can save weight by not carrying additional poles dedicated only to holding up the shelter. Tarptent, LightHeart Gear, and Six Moon Designs are just some of the companies that offer excellent quality and selection in this category. Bonus is that these typically offer more room than a "regular" tent in the same "person" capacity — a standard 2P tent might be only 40" wide inside while some of the 2P tarptents are 50+".

As others have said, there are easy ways to stake out on granite, sand, snow, etc. Carrying a few extra feet of guyline weighs much less than carrying dedicated tent poles.

Thanks for the input. My current frontrunner is the Hogback.

Joseph:
My current tent is 6lb 6oz, including footprint. We may squeeze one more trip out of it. But it isn't waterproof anymore and is really cramped. With 3, I'm completely pushed up against the tent wall – very uncomfortable. My gear upgrade plan is roughly – tent, stove (after borrowing a jetboil, I'm never using my whisperlight again), my sleeping bag, kid's sleeping bag, my pack, husband's sleeping bag, husband's pack. I'm thinking I'll write up a gear list though and ask for some advice. Since my goal is to make backpacking fun for all of us, I don't want to have to clamp down on all horseplay or say "stop that, you'll bump the treking pole" over and over.

Franco:
I took a look at a bunch of your videos. Very helpful, thanks.

JR, Franco and David:
Your input on freestanding makes sense. I've always managed ok with my current non-freestanding tent.

If you want something freestanding and little more substantial, Sierra Trading Post has a closeout deal on a HUGE Marmot 3 person tent.

http://cdn1.campsavercm.netdna-cdn.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/900×900/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/a/marmot_aeros.jpg

Double doors. 76 x 90 inches. Brow poles for vertical walls. 40d PU coated silnylon. 3000 mm waterproof floor. DAC NSL poles. Looks like it weighs in at 5 lbs 3 ounces (poles, tent, fly) and 6 lb 1 ounce (complete: stakes, guys, repair kit, stuff sacks, etc.)

Sierra Trading Post has it for $319. Sign up for their email and get it with a 35% off coupon for $208. Gonna be hard to beat for 3-person free standing tent that's robust enough for kid use.

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/marmot-aeros-3-tent-3-person-3-season~p~6333p/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFc84BcA2-I

They make an Eclipse 3P that's lighter (4 lb 6 ounces to 4 lb 14 ounces), same materials, but, smaller with only one door, one vestibule, and less substantial pole structure. For family use, one door would be a non-starter, IMO.

The big difference between this and the Tarptent route is that these are free standing with more substantial pole structure. And, the PU coated silnylon is very waterproof (1800 mm fly, 3000mm floor) so it won't mist through. Full factory seam tape, so you you don't have to seam seal to make it waterproof.

I believe no one has mentioned……might be an option you may like.
BearPaw Wilderness Design Luna Tents.

GO HERE

I'll give you a few thoughts from the perspective of a parent of three small children re:backpacking.

With one kid, things are more simple. The child can sleep in between you two and do fine. Once you get to the second or third kid, things get more complicated. There will be issues of who gets to sleep next to who, and if one of your kids is a whirling dervish at night adults or kids may have issues sleeping next to that one.

I use a big Agnes copper spur UL4, and a tarp tent stratospire 2 when all 5 of us go out. I love them both. There are many great UltraLite backpacking tents and tarps however with kids it is definitely worth getting something substantial enough to handle the abuse that kids give out. I love the Stratospire that I have. I do not know if the interior bug net clips in for the hogback the same way that it is for mine. For mine the bug net clips in with two small clips and that is it. My kids would have ripped those clips out a couple years ago. My kids bump around inside the big Agnes tent and it takes the abuse really well. Having eight pockets on the interior is also great for the stuff that they have.

Kids also are more likely to track leaves and dirt into the tent. I wouldn't even blink about getting a freestanding tent. First it is much easier to pick up the tent and shake out all of the dirt in a freestanding tent then it is to shake out a tent that require trekking poles to put up. The first time that I picked up my Big Agnes and shook out the leaves my kids eyes about popped out. Now every single trip we take, all three insist on taking turns holding the tent up in the air like they are massively strong. It is a great deal of unexpected fun.

When I am taking the three kids out by myself, or any other combination of only four or less of us, I exclusively take the Big Agnes. When it is all five, parents go in the tarp tent and kids go in the BA. I really like the way the Big Agnes has the fourth person sleeping perpendicular to the other three. When there were arguments over who got to sleep next to dad, I can sleep perpendicular to all three and then they all three can be close to me. However, my youngest is a tornado when she sleeps, and rapidly we changed to having her sleep perpendicular to me and the other two kids. This way she does not bump into the rest of us.

I looked over and over for a lightweight 5 person backpacking tent and came up empty handed. I know at this point you only have one kid, but a freestanding copper spur is relatively light for what you get, can take the abuse, is easy to shake out the dirt, and has tons of pockets. If you go up beyond the UL3 to the UL4 you will have ability to expand your options and not worry about getting a different tent if you have a second child. Also the vestibules are humongous.

Chris-

Useful info, thanks.

Question: Your kids never poke out their eyes on the cross-pole?

(I really want a Strat 2, but sounds like my kid would trash it in no time. good to know)

My grand children used this tent up to two years ago (ages NOW 14, 14, 13, 12) and told grandpa "we need a little more room"!

The two clips holding the inner of the Strato Spire II connect to the Spires via an elastic , so there is a bit of give there.

Franco,
I totally love my stratospire, but those elastic cords wouldn't last long when you exit the tent by hanging on to the upper edge of the zipper and pulling(of course my kids never do that ;). You'd think the pole right there would be a good grabbing point but NOOOO. Also, Henry was nice enough to send me a couple pockets to add to the top of the tent, but that again wouldn't be an upgrade over the eight big pockets in the copper spur.

For adults and older kids, I'll take the notch, strat1, strat2, or any of Henry's products over any of the BA line. He just makes better backpacking tents. Throw in a 3,5,7 yr old and that will end most UL tents faster than sleeping with raw salmon in grizzly territory. Never seen the inside of the hogback though.

Most grown ups don't pack up their sleeping bags into a stuff sack and then play dodgeball with them inside the tent until dad says stop. (Actually kidding there…but you would be astounded at the stuff little kids think is just fine to do). Fyi, if you take a tinfoil stove windscreen and wad it up into a ball to hit with a stick, it's a lot harder than you think to flatten it out and use it again.

As for the crossbar in the UL4, never had a problem. It doesn't stick out that far, and rides the edge of the fly so essentially Is the roof. 1 of my three is nervous to sleep without the fly… No cowboy camping for her. Even without the fly I doubt it would stick out far enough to be a problem.

The family camping stories are very helpful. Time to do a little research on how the Hogback's inner net is attached.

The inner attaches to the fly via mitten hooks.
I can assure you that if you let kids (or adults) hang/swing from the inner, it will break.
Mind you I am not aware of backpacking tents that are designed to cope with that.
For reference, the first few trips with a Hogback were taken by the Shires family and that is the reason why the tent exists.
At the time it was two adults, a not yet 5 year old child and a 50 lbs dog.
They all slept inside and with no problem but of course not every family is the same.

fwiw I've had a toddler do serious damage to a BA car camping tent. So it's not like freestanding has total immunity!

Absolutely. I was mainly trying to toss a bit of humor into the thread. The hogback does look nice and spacious and is def lighter, and even a couple ounces means a lot around here.

I think you would do well by all of the above mentioned tents. I wasn't trying to trash talk the Tarptents, I really like mine. I have taken my kids out solo a few times and had a total ball. (going one on one with your child is truly magical and a great bonding experience). I joke about mine because they are super high energy kids, but they are really well behaved in the woods.

I will stick by the durability and ease of cleaning out dirt and leaves comments though. The pole structure makes the weight of the copperspur's higher, but there is some 'use' benefit.

Franco, if you have any tips or videos on cleaning out dirt and leaves from a Strat2, I would love to read/watch them. Most UL hikers don't need more than 1 pocket in a tent, if that. As a parent, though, extra pockets can be nice.

I bet it will be a while (like a few years) till I can get my kids past 10 miles in a day. Mostly we do ~5 milers. Mostly because we have to stop at every butterfly…

Build the butterfly a house…

We have to climb every fifth tree…

But going 1 mile an hour at top speed can be worth it…

As we get older, we will get faster, and we will get lighter. I bet my next tent will be a Rainshadow2 for the three kids (once they carry more of their own gear). Till then I'll enjoy the fun even if it means I don't as get deep into the backcountry as most folks here.

"Franco, if you have any tips or videos on cleaning out dirt and leaves from a Strat2, I would love to read/watch them."
well rather than lifting up the tent BA style (you could strain your back doing that) you just un-clip those mitten hooks* (takes about 1 minute to do all of them) and then turn your inner inside out.
You can do that in the rain too , under the still in place fly (try doing that with the BA)
If you are not interested in fully separating the inner from the fly, just undo one side(5 clips) reverse the floor,then clip back.
* to undo those mitten hooks, you hold the ring with one hand and twist out the mitten hook with the other.
Sorry I did not see the bit about the pockets.