Arcteryx soft shell and layering systerm: New winter hiker needs advice

Winter in the NE is the best time of year for me…

Your statement:
"the pile/pertex or trad system work and I feel they both weigh less and offer pieces that are usable across four season than a system using the Arcteryx shell"…
mirrors my experience.

Heavy softshells with membranes (Windstopper, Powershield, Conduit) in my opinion are not well suited to multi-day subfreezing outings in the NE. My Gamma MX and Windstopper stuff does not breathe well enough to keep me from heavy sweating with a pack on, and once your back is soaked and you stop = flash freeze. These pieces also take a long time to dry.

I think you are correct in that, no matter what system you use, you still need a hardshell (though I don't think you need Event or Gore). Wet snow, sleet and water of any kind will wet out and soak my Powershield and Windstopper in uner 20 minutes. Once wet- they stay wet.

I like the softshell CONCEPT of not having to adjust layers by taking things on and off… especially in winter when you do not want to be stopping at every hill or every time the wind picks up. So, being able to stay warm and block wind without changing clothes is very important.

With this in mind I usually wear wool baselayers, powerstretch top and bottoms, and a Patagonia Ready Mix or the most breathable windshirt I can find. I like to be a little cool, perspire less, and maxmize breathability. When I stop, I throw on a warm jacket right away- over everything. That is more important to me than any other piece… don't skimp here.

Softshells with membranes are not as comfortable or as effecient in moving moisture (for me) as those that lack them. Some people love them- I guess alot depends on how much your perspire, what you carry and how hard you work. I very occasionally use mine for ice cragging, but that has alot of standing around involved (for me at least).

As a caveat, I have come to the conlusion that the average user will only notice marginal comfort differences between many of the layering systems and softshells. One may breathe better, block wind better or dry better… but you will always have a trade off. Nothing is perfect, but not much is terrible either.

Given this, I say- buy what you like. If you love the Sigma, keep it. This is why I still have my Gamma MX.

If you got it ONLY because you thought it would be the best jacket in terms of pure function, you are likely correct in that a baselyer, light fleece, and non-membrane shell will be more versatile and maybe even cheaper. But, probably not as sexy!

Oh, shelled pile jackets like Marmot's Driclime Windshirt do work well as a second and outer layer. They block wind and move moisture. They tend (in my experience) to need more help in wet snow… but if you get one, try wearing it as a baselyer, under a tight fitting top like powerstretch. Eliminates flash freeze completely. This (I think) is the original softshell concpet. I just wish mine had a hood.

arcteryx is sooooooo overpriced. I avoid their website.

Maybe it's me, but all the soft shells seem to do is muddy the water for the new backpacker. I decided a while back to just skip them and layer. Mostly because the clothing for backpacking is one of the more complicated areas of gear selection and I didn't see a reason to make things more complicated :D

Tom

I myself love to hike in NE in the winter. As of last winter I found my best system for keeping sweating to a min was to wear several layers of wool in various thicknesses. Granted you will need to get used to starting off at the car pretty chilled, I always find that I warm up fast. Last year most of my snowshoeing and mountaineering clothing systems consisted of a few layers of Ibex Woolies long underwear, an Ibex Shak full zip with an Icebreaker 260 bodyfit on top (the one with the thumb loops to protect wrists from exposure). Depending on the weather I was expecting I would carry an Ibex IceFall softshell jkt (while I go agree that it is not as breathable as I would like, somtimes the wind even below treeline can be too much for wool alone) and either my Patagonia Houdini windshirt or my Specter hardshell with a DAS parka for rest breaks. Only once in the winter did I actually need to wear all of this at once.

By the by, good for you for not reading into the hype too much.

For someone who is just getting started I would generally recommend going with the base + wind shirt + wp/b shell + high loft belay style jacket. This combination gives you a huge range of comfort which is better than an integrated soft shell in warmer conditions >50F, and as good as a soft shell in colder conditions.

You might ask why bother with a soft shell.

• Requires less fiddling that a 3 or 4 layer system in cooler conditions
• Soft shells tend to be more durable than classic windshirts.
• I don’t understand why, but I have found my integrated soft shell jackets tend to perform a bit better than very simulir materials used in separates (e.g. base layer + windshirt).

My experience is that I can forgo my hardshell IF the conditions are continuously below freezing and that I am not constantly in contact with snow. This includes most backpacking, snowshoeing, and skiing. I would still bring a hard shell if I was climbing or if I expected that I would be spending a lot of time building snow structures.

> 1. Is the Arcteryx soft shell over hyped and not really very useful?
> Do any of you have it? If so, how do you use it?
> 2. Any way to make good use of it

I wouldn’t use Gore WindStopper jacket. It doesn’t breath as well as a a good full on hardshell made from eVENT and isn’t waterproof. It’s an expensive jacket which is only useful for around town and maybe downhill skiing.

> > 3. Does anyone have an opinion on whether the pile/pertex
> shell-based system or the trad system above would work better or worse
> than one based around an Arcteryx soft shell?

You will find a pile/pertex (or the modern update of this approach) MUCH more effective. In my recommended softshell page I wrote:

I think soft shells are great in winter conditions… my daughter lives in her Marmot DriClime Windshirt year round backpacking, skiing, or just walking around town… In continuously cool/cold conditions I use a Rab Vapour-Rise Trail Jacket. It breaths well, has just right amount of warmth for when I am active, has kept me dry in long drizzles, in hard (but short lived) rain storms, and in wet snowfall, has a nice fold away hood, and the sleeves easily push up to my elbows when I need to cool off a bit.

I love winter hiking in the White Mountains of NH where I have a vacation home, some day to be my retirement home if I live long enough.

First of all, I agree with all the previous postings about soft-shells and winter layering. IMHO, soft-shells which are advertised as the "best of both worlds" are in fact the "worst of both worlds."

1. Soft-shells don't breathe well and,
2. Soft-shells are not waterproof.

So, if it's not raining, wear something that breathes well and if it is raining, then wear something that is waterproof. Duh!

My layering system consists of various thicknesses of merino wool baselayers, sometimes worn in combination, a Montane Featherlite windshirt, a Patagonia Micro-puff synthetic hooded jacket, almost excusively for rest stops and camp and, a poncho with Golite Reed rain pants for rain/sleet/slush (I stay off the windy ridges in winter). In really cold temps, I pack a down vest to layer under the Micro-puff after I've set up camp and put on a dry base layer top if necessary.

That being said, the Arcteryx soft-shells are probably great for running around town, stopping at the grocery, etc. and I admit, they are really stylish looking. One would strike quite a pose getting out of a 4-wheel drive Porche Cayenne to run into the local Starbucks! ;-)

During the winter and early spring I backpack, snowshoe, and climb/scramble Washington’s Cascades along the I-90 corridor, Leavenworth, and in the Teanaway. I perspire a lot and always had a hard time managing temperature in the winter until I made the plunge and purchased my Arc’Teryx MX. I can’t speak to why others regulate this outstanding soft shell to the malls, personally I have only seen these worn by some of our finest local climbers who leave me in the dust. Be that as it may after many days in the mountains they still looks great in town.

I have found the MX to be wind and highly water and especially snow resistant and very breathable and warm when moving and wear mine over a Smartwool mid-weight merino wool base layer. The MX fits like a glove, has very usable chest pockets, and closes tight when the wind and weather blows. Coupled with a lightweight OR balaclava and OR Hat For All Seasons the combination regulates temperatures and protects with my Mammut Champ Pants in all but the worst conditions when I layer my hard shells. Insulation consists of Wild Things EP hooded jacket and OR Trance Sweater. I set my insulation to 0 degrees and have other pieces to go lower. I realize the NE and Midwest winters can be much colder and that others may have different experiences with the MX.

I'm a big fan of softshell clothing, too – in winter in the Sierra Nevada.

I wear softshell pants and have a softshell top I put on when it gets a bit windy or I stop for a quick break. I've found them excellent for moving fast on snowshoes – good breathability combined with enough warmth, water resistance and wind protection.

I like the fit and feel better than a more breathable insulating layer covered with a WPB shell.

Thanks to everyone for your replies. It’s very generous of you to share your time, experience, and information. I feel like my subscription to Backpacking Light was a good investment. I’m catching up fairly quick and learning the ropes.

I have to say that I’m not too surprised that the marketers and corporados make selecting gear more difficult than it needs to be with their dysfunctional misinformation and hype, but I am pleasantly surprised that this forum offers such a great place to cut to the chase and get to the facts. I really don’t care about looking sexy in my Sigma at the supermarket…I want to backpack without being hampered by gear that doesn’t work or weighs me down. Besides, I shop at the local Green Market anyway. ;)

I have a few questions regarding your replies though. Here goes:

1.Micheal, you wrote “…no matter what system you use, you still need a hardshell (though I don't think you need Event or Gore)” but I’m not sure what else might be adequate. One of the first pieces of gear that I bought was a cheap North Face polyurethane hardshell. Would this work? Other suggestions?

2.Also Michael, I like your idea of wearing powerstrech over the driclime! I might try something like Cloudveil’s Walk Don’t Run Hoody. How do you think that would work? Any other suggestions?

3.Matt: sound advice. I can’t wait to take my Arcteryx shell back!

4.Jonathan, I’ll have to look into the Ibex wool stuff. I’m unfamiliar with it.

5.Mark, thanks for the link to your site. Very informative. I may have more questions for you after I take a better look at it.

Thanks again to everyone. The opinions and info are much appreciated.

Dave

Right, so I'm going to return the Arcteryx soft shell and I feel liek I have the upper body layers sorted out.

But hwat about pants?

Mark, I was looking for the Clodveil Prospector pants that you mentioned on your website, but they appear to be discontinued. Do you know what replaced them? Any other suggestions like them.

I'm starting to look at the Montane Terra pants maybe the Golite Paradigm pants…and I figure I'll have a pair of either merino/synthetic long underwear and a pair of rain pants.

Hi David,
I've been using the Ibex "Guide Light" pants for 5 years now and like them. They are wool lined and feel good on my bare skin and they breath very good and feel good/non-restrictive. I wear a pair of Black Diamond pants that are the same weight over the Ibex. I don't wear longjohns as I've never found a pair that feel good. If it gets real cold, I wear a pair of Puffball pants over the other two pair of pants.

Hi Ed,

So am I right in assuming that the basic system as work here is:

1. wool layer
2. outer layer (nylon or some such)
3. water proof layer

I'll have to look into the Ibex and Black Diamond stuff.

Thanks!

Dave

Well, I hear you guys do get some rain in the winter and a waterproof layer may be needed but I don't wear waterproof on my legs here in the Rockies. I wear a Gortex shell on top because snow melts between my pack and back. Years ago I used to use a 60/40 Hollubar jacket and was quite happy with that but it did get wet on my back and shoulders but it did dry very fast compared to some of the cheaper waterproof jackets I've had after that. The
Gortex jacket I have now is not bad at moisture transfer but I do have to watch my overheating and sweating.
The Ibex pants I have do dry fast if I do happen to get them wet. But the only way the pants get wet is to lay or wallow in the snow and I don't do that.
So, my basic layering on my legs is wool and some kind of breathable synthetic layer that will shed the snow. That all comes in one with the Ibex pants but they are not warm enough by themselves. If you wear thermals under them, they might be warm enough.

The Sigma SV won't work very well for your intention.

Aside from the primary question…

Per Arc'teryx's own description, the Sigma SV is for "bitter climates and methodical climbs." It's a mountaineering jacket the intent of which is to mostly replace a hardshell for typical mountaineering conditions, where you need the hardshell's total wind resistance, but not so much the total waterproofness (that is, precipitation would be frozen, not liquid). What you get back is improved breathability, and a little bit of stretch to enable a trimmer-cut/better-articulation than the typical hardshell.

(They have this suffix system, where "SV" stands for "Severe Use". I don't think they were kidding, but I'm sure many people will read it differently to suit what they're doing. It might be more revealing to say "Severe conditions use, not all-around/general/typical conditions use, i.e. a real niche product, at least the way we designed it.")

That all said, yeah, the Sigma SV also works great as a mid-season ski resort jacket, or posing around town. :P

If we were to stay in the Arc'teryx fold, what I think would work better for typical backpacking would be a semi-traditional layering system with a Polartec Wind Pro midlayer/"softshell" (Tau Pullover, Accomplice) as your 80% piece and a light hardshell (Theta SL, Alpha SL) to go over it as your 20% piece.

I think soft shells are great for one day single use events like skiing or a day hike where you can dial in to the existing weather. For multi-day hiking they are too heavy and too limited for the cycle of exertion: hard climbing, downhill cool downs, rest stops, and camped. And they are expensive.

I found that clothing took more perceptual change for me than any other aspect of ultralight gear. That urge to have one big heavy layer has to go– it just isn't versatile enough.

David, Dale,

Couldn't agree more with you guys. The post that started this thread was my first. Since I posted, I've learned quite a lot. I'm still reading and learning, but I have a much better handle on how to choose a clothing system that works for fall and winter in the 'Dacks.

I returned the Sigma SV. In it's place I bought what I needed to complete this system:

Baselayer: either a merino crew or synthetic zip t. I have a couple Smartwool pieces in micro and light weights, the Patagonia R1 hoody, and the Outdoor Research Specter Pullover. I already had a lot of these pieces, though.

Windshirt: I got a Montane Feartherlite Smock. I also just found a Marmot Driclime for $50 yesterday, so I grabbed that too.

Waterproof breathable shell: I picked the Integral Designs Thru Hiker.

High loft insulation: I picked up a Montbell Thermawrap. As it gets colder, I guess I'll get something warmer with more loft.

I have some Prana pants, one pair of stretch woven stuff, one pair of expedition grade nylon. And some Smartwool long johns. Also, a pair of Golite Reed rain pants. I might have to get a something more suited to winter cold later, but this is good for now I think.

It was nice to feel like I was making smart choices when picking this stuff out. Especially given how pricey some of this stuff is. Your responses to this and other threads were really helpful.

The Prospector pants were replaced with the Peak pants. I will make two observations this.

1) I do like these pants… but durability has been poor and they are quite expensive. Traditional supplex hiking pants perform almost as well a 1/2 the cost retail, and something like 1/4 the cost from STP our other outlet.

2) For the NE in the winter I would be looking at something heavier weight. In the west I have been very happy with dryskin 3xdry pants (Marmot ATV… discontinued, but there are plenty of other options). I would seriously consider something like driclime, rab vapor rising, paramo, etc). Lots of people have been very happy with powershield pants (might be ok because legs don't need to breath as well as torso).

>>I would seriously consider something like driclime, rab vapor rising, paramo, etc). Lots of people have been very happy with powershield pants (might be ok because legs don't need to breath as well as torso).

Thanks Mark!

Do you mean that the driclime or powerstretch pants get worn under the 3-season nylon pants? Or they replace them?

Also, can you give me a couple of examples of specific pants currently in production that you think are suited to NE winters?

By the way, your website has been helpful in picking this stuff out.

Dave

What I was suggesting was something like the follow:

0) powerstretch when facing extreme cold
1) Driclime / vapor rising / paramo pants always on. Several have side zippers which lets you vent in warmer weather. In most conditions when you are active and working this is all you will need.
2) High loft insulation overpants to layer over the soft shell pants. My preference would be something that is synthetic with a durable shell made with EPIC or similar fabric.

The following is a suggestion from theory… not practice. It's been something like 20 years since I spent any time in the east's backcountry during the winter. My recent winter experience has been almost exclusively in the sierras which have much more mild conditions. All I have needed in the sierras are my dryskin pants and a hardshell which I use when the wind is really blowing or I am in constant contact with the snow. Adding midweight tights covered the few trips to CO and UT.

I have worn with great success in Colorado early March trips and in New Mexico in early February:

Patagonia Silkweight boxers
Silkweight bottoms
Black Diamond Alpine Pants (Schoeller Dynamic)
Wild Things EP Pants

Silk weight t-shirt
Silk weight long sleeve
Patagonia R2 fleece
Patagonia Essenshell jacket
Wild Things EP jacket

OR Vert gloves
OR Windstopper Balaclava
BD Mitts
La Sportiva Lhotse boots

With all on I can sit comfortably on a windy ridge at 0-10 degrees and cook my breakfast. My butt is on my Thermarest and I dug a little ledge to sit in and cook on.

This winter I am going to try the same undies but with the Patagonia Ninja pullover with hood, Houdini, and DAS or Nunatak Skaha. On legs Micropuff pants and guide pants.

I sold the Wildthings gear on eBay 'cause I lost some weight and they were to big. I would have bought them again gladly but were not on sale when I was replacing the larger sizes.

I really like the BD Alpine Pants for unrestricted movement, but they are cut like riding pants with big poofy thighs.

I am not a fan of the all inclusive soft shell/insulated garment. You can have that on the legs, or at least me where I do not sweat as much. I like the layered approach to control temperature.

And if you like Mark's advice do it. Great site Mark with tons of good info. I occasionally search eBay for the old Latok/Cloudwalker gear. I could not afford it when I was a kid.

I can tell you what I have used successfully for many years – to the point where they're threadbare and I also need to face a decision on pant's.

That is a ventible WP/B shell (10 year old Patagonia Guide Pants) with mid-weight long underwear. In extreme cold or when stationary, I add insultated shorts (knicker length) that were made from a military quilted pants liner. These are relatively fragile and best worn under the shell.

The shells have these features that I love:
– heavy duty fabric stands up to glissades, kneeling in snow etc – winter use is more abrasive than summer in my experience…odd but I think true

– crompon patches

– zippered front pockets

– zippered side vents

– zippered fly

– suspenders (they're a bit big to accomadate layers that get tucked in)

I like the WP/B fabric because the east is prone to such wild tempurature swings that the alternative is carrying rainpants especially on over-nights. Sadly I don't see an exact replacement on the market, but haven't yet really dug into it… It is a system that has been incredibly reliable in weather ranging from brutal cold to grossly wet.

Sounds like you're having fun figuring out your gear David. Good going.
My two insulating layers for my torso are different weights so I can wear the thin one if warm enough or the thick one in the intermediate range and both for cold. I use a down layer over those two layers if I'm not moving or if it is really that cold that it's needed.

Thanks to all of you for your input. I'm really coming to love this forum and I feel much better educated for my time spent here.

Mark, thanks for the clarification. I'll have a look around for some Driclime pants I think.

Christopher, that's a pretty nice set up you have there. Don't be surprised if I rip off a little of your mojo.

Jack, I've had a look at the Patagonia Guide Pants and I'm particularly interested in them. Do you know which kind you have? It seems like the line goes Guide Pants, Super Guide Pants, and Winter Guide Pants. I'm yet to sort out exactly what differentiates them, but I suspect that I could achieve the same effect as the Winter Guide Pants by wearing wool longjohn under them. What do you think?

Ed, this stuff is surprisingly fun, isn't it?

Do you guys usually wear your thick winter insulation layer (e.g. Patagonia DAS) *over* your waterproof breathable layer? I think that's the typical way to do it right?

I'm don't think I could get something much loftier than a Mont-Bell Thermawrap under my Integral Designs Thre Hiker without squishing the loft down… If that's a problem, I should return it and size up to XL.

What do you think?

Man, it's been a long time since I did something that made me feel like such a newbie.

Dave