The New MSR Windboiler – First Look & Questions

As a user and fan of the "older" Reactor system, I'm interested in seeing what benefits, if any, come with this new system. I've been pretty happy with my current setup (minus the weight factor), but there are some things like the locking cup / burner setup and cozy that are appealing.

Honestly, I don’t see a compelling reason for current Reactor owners to switch to the Windboiler. The Windboiler does a nice job from an ergonomic/human factors standpoint. The cup/bowl and dual purpose lid (fits both the pot and the cup/bowl) are nice, but not compelling. I suspect the Reactor is still more powerful and more windproof, but I won’t know without more testing. The stoves are approximately equal in weight, so no savings there.

Now, if one were not a Reactor owner and were looking for a new stove, then the Windboiler at $130 has got to look pretty attractive when compared to a 1.0 L Reactor at $190.

The one real advantage to the Windboiler that I see so far is the fact that it can simmer pretty well. I was atop a pretty windy ridge, when I did this (see below), right after the photo that immediately follows. That’s pretty effective flame control.

Moments before:

HJ

Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

I’m laughing a bit here, but I just watched MSR’s video on the Windboiler. In my blog post, I showed the canister legs going into the pot first when packing up. MSR’s video shows them going in last. Apparently I got it backwards, although either will work. I think MSR’s method is slightly easier.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

But, but, HJ, how is one going to spend quality time with a stove if it boils water so fast. :) My MicroRocket is pretty fast. The Optimus 8/8R's, well, quality time there.
Duane

Jim, did you do any measurements of gas used per boil, etc yet?

But, but, HJ, how is one going to spend quality time with a stove if it boils water so fast. ;)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

Jim, did you do any measurements of gas used per boil, etc yet?

Vladimir,

Not yet. It will be a little bit difficult to give exact figures. Unlike Reactors, this stove has a valve that will actually turn the stove way down. The most efficient boil will be at a lower setting. It’s hard to run a test that will be representative unless I want to do three series of tests:
1. Full throttle
2. Mid-range valve setting
3. Low valve setting.

I’ll have to think about it.

I have no doubt that the stove has the capability to run efficiently give it’s heat exchanger design. I imagine however that it won’t be particularly efficient with the valve fully open; most stoves are not.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

As always, you've done a nice initial review on a new stove! Thanks! I think you're absolutely right about the Windboiler being a potential Jetboil competitor, and I'm frankly quite pleased to see MSR stepping up to the plate on this. MSR has been a long time player in the backpacking world, and I am delighted to see this new offering from them.

What I'd be very curious to know is what is the Carbon monoxide output of the Windboiler compared to the Reactor.

Jim, did you weigh the Windboiler yet (of course you did)? My buddy talked the MRS rep into giving us couple of loaner items for our Boulder Lightpackers meeting next week–the MSR Flylite tent and a Windboiler. We mainly wanted to set the tent up and see how it looked. It's pretty nice, actually, at 2 pounds and with just enough room for 2 six-foot guys (no other room for gear though).

The Windboiler, with a tag still on it, came in at 17.2 ounces without fuel, which is heavier than my 14.4 ounce 1.0 liter Reactor. Since neither of us would take the bottom cup with us, we both wondered why people will choose the Windboiler over the 1.0 L. Reactor. If the heating element truly allows one to simmer, that would be an advantage over the Reactor.

Speed to boil 2 cups and fuel efficiency would be interesting to compare. Please test it at the 3 flame settings and time the boils, then measure the amount of fuel used. In my own patio tests I found that my 1.0 L. Reactor used .25 to .30 ounce of fuel per boil (2 cups of water) in 2.5 to 3.0 minutes, whereas my Jetboil Sol used .20-.25 ounce of fuel and it took about 30 seconds longer to achieve the boil. If the Windboiler can match the fuel usage of the Jetboil Sol, and can do it in much more windy conditions, maybe they will have something there. But if the Windboiler's fuel consumption matches that of the Reactor, then I'm thinking that the Reactor is the stove to take. The Reactor wins on the volume of water it can boil, weight, and it has a lower height which might help with stability. But it doesn't have a cup, and it costs a lot more. The other apparent difference between the two is that the Windboiler only works with one pot size, unless MSR plans to add larger pots to fit the burner (and also make it more tipsy?).

From my cold weather patio tests last December, I found that the Jetboil Sol actually outperformed the Reactor in windless 20* F conditions. It used less fuel to achieve a boil, and it was only slightly slower to get the water boiling. So far, I'm thinking that the Sol might be a better stove in all but the most windy conditions. And they've discontinued it!

Please let us know what you learn about the Windboiler, Jim. Do it for science, right? The planet needs to know the results.

A slight thread jack…where/when is the Boulder Lightpacker's meeting now-a-days? :)

As always, you’ve done a nice initial review on a new stove! Thanks!

Thank you, Stephen. I get really frustrated by “lite” reviews that really don’t dig into a stove or offer a lot of hard data. I figured I could do better. It’s nice to hear that someone appreciates it.

I think you’re absolutely right about the Windboiler being a potential Jetboil competitor, and I’m frankly quite pleased to see MSR stepping up to the plate on this. MSR has been a long time player in the backpacking world, and I am delighted to see this new offering from them.

Yeah, MSR kind of side stepped direct competition with Jetboil when they introduced the Reactor. The reactor is a very wind resistant, high end snow melting machine. It’s perfect for Alpine climbers who are going to bivy on an exposed ridge top or for people who want to melt a lot of snow. But it’s price point was way beyond that of the various Jetboils. It’s $190 for the cheapest version of the Reactor, hardly an “affordable” stove. The cheapest Jetboil is $80 — that’s $110 less.

Notice now that the Windboiler is MSRP $130 which is the same MSRP as Jetboil’s latest offering, the MiniMo (what the heck does that name mean anyway??). Both the Windboiler and the MiniMo have highly adjustable valves. I got a good simmer on the Windboiler WAY easier than what can be done with a Reactor. Notice also that less than an ounce separates the stated weights of the two systems. Note the use of the word “stated”. More on that later.

Regarding simmering, this photo says it all. That is a good simmer.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

What I’d be very curious to know is what is the Carbon monoxide output of the Windboiler compared to the Reactor.

Stephen (Komae),

You and me both, brother. Unfortunately, that’s a bit beyond my technical capabilities. Where is that Roger Caffin guy when you need him? ;) Seriously, I do hope that BPL (i.e. Roger) will publish carbon monoxide values for the both Windboiler and the MiniMo (and perhaps the Joule too although that is a heavy beast).

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

Jim, did you weigh the Windboiler yet (of course you did)?

Gary,

Yes I did. The weight of each component is in a table in the Appendix. Sorry the review is so long. I once had a boss who described me a “thorough.” I guess I’ll own that one. Tech nerd, you know. My “day job” lately has been writing tech specs. :)

The Windboiler, with a tag still on it, came in at 17.2 ounces without fuel, which is heavier than my 14.4 ounce 1.0 liter Reactor.

My total is 457g/16.1 oz. Basically one pound. My unit is 25g (about 0.9 oz) over spec. Interestingly my 1.0 L Reactor is also 25 g off spec, but the other direction (i.e. it’s lighter than spec).

Now, I emphasized the word “stated” in a post a couple posts back in this thread. MSR needs to “watch it’s weight.” There’s something psychological about passing the “pound barrier”. Somehow 15.25 oz sounds a lot lighter than “over a pound.” The word “pound” implies heavy. I think MSR needs to keep the units pretty close to their stated weight. My unit is within an ounce, but yours is about 2 oz overweight. That seems like maybe they need to tighten things up a bit. Shoot, a lot of whole stoves weigh less than 2 oz.

Since neither of us would take the bottom cup with us…

I actually like the cup/bowl. At 500 ml it’s big enough to be actually usable. I usually carry a bowl anyway, especially if I’m hiking with another person.

…we both wondered why people will choose the Windboiler over the 1.0 L. Reactor.

One word for you: Price. The Windboiler is $60 cheaper.

If the heating element truly allows one to simmer, that would be an advantage over the Reactor.

It simmered — and simmered well — in the tests I did. I still need to do more tests. I want to see exactly where the flame out point is. You can’t see the flame (if the pot is on), so it’s a little tricky to adjust things while cooking compared to flames that you can see. One could mark the spindle though…

If the Windboiler can match the fuel usage of the Jetboil Sol, and can do it in much more windy conditions, maybe they will have something there. But if the Windboiler’s fuel consumption matches that of the Reactor, then I’m thinking that the Reactor is the stove to take.

I think you mean “the Jetboil is the one to take,” yes?

From my cold weather patio tests last December, I found that the Jetboil Sol actually outperformed the Reactor in windless 20* F conditions. It used less fuel to achieve a boil, and it was only slightly slower to get the water boiling. So far, I’m thinking that the Sol might be a better stove in all but the most windy conditions.

Well, there’s the proverbial $60,000 question. Just how windy does it have to be before it pays off to carry the extra weight of a Windboiler (compared to a Sol)? That’s going to be a hard one to get a good handle on. You’re really going to make me work for this one, aren’t you?

And they’ve discontinued [the Sol]!

Yeah, well you can thank the Jetboil Zip for that. The Zip is only about 1 oz heavier than the aluminum Sol. The aluminum Sol is $40 more expensive than the Zip. Apparently a lot of people weren’t willing to pay $40 for piezo ignition and one ounce lighter. I obviously wasn’t in the board room the day they decided to kill the Sol, but I think that’s what happened. The Ti Sol is even more high end and is $70 more than the zip. Just didn’t cut it economically I think. I hope I’m wrong and Jetboil has something even lighter in the works, but I doubt it. Most people aren’t on BPL and just don’t care about one ounce.

Please let us know what you learn about the Windboiler, Jim. Do it for science, right? The planet needs to know the results.

I’ll see what I can do. You know this cuts into my time on the trail, right?

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

PM sent to you, Mags, re: Boulder Lightpackers meeting next Tuesday at Neptune's, 6 PM.

Jim, I'll have to get back to you later–it's time to eat dinner. Good work, good insights, and the planet thanks you (those wannabees in China are watching our every post, don't ya know?). You are a good, man, even if you are a tech-spec sort of guy, like I kinda am. And yeah, where's Roger C. when we really need him? He's probably out there kicking dingos off his farm or something…

>the MiniMo (what the heck does that name mean anyway??

small version of the Sumo. In all the Jetboil MiniMo fanfare the fact that the Sumo gets the new regulator and valve has been lost. The Sumo and Minimo use the same stove.

Oh, duh. I guess I’m a little slow sometimes.

Thanks, James.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

He’s probably out there kicking dingos off his farm or something…

Hope he doesn’t break his foot or something. ;)

I’m heading out again this weekend to a windy spot at about 8,000’/2400m. Dunno if I want to carry a scale up there, eek. But that’s kind of how it works when you want to know fuel consumption per boil. I guess I can just do a before and after weigh in at home, but then I have to bring a separate canister for actual cooking.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

So, I wrote MSR and got some answers back about the questions I posed in my original post. I’ll put my interpretation (I own it as such) of their answers below:

Q.  Why doesn’t the entire WindBoiler burner glow the way the Reactor’s does? [SEE 1st PHOTO BELOW]
A.  The Windboiler’s burner is a new design. All of the air comes up through the burner column into the burner head. We tuned it to work at a variety of elevations. At lower elevations, the mixture will be “lean” (a lot of air compared to the amount of fuel), and the burner may only glow in the center. At higher elevations, the mixture will be “rich” (a lot of fuel compared to the amount of air), and the burner will glow more across the entire surface. At all elevations, the burner should be fully functional regardless of the amount of “glow”.

Q.  What is the small wire strung across the burner for? [SEE 2nd PHOTO BELOW]
A.  This is a “telltale”. It can be difficult to tell if the burner is on in direct sunlight. This small wire is designed to glow brightly even if the entire burner doesn’t glow so that the user knows that the stove is on.

Answer number two intrigues me. Take a look at the first photo. The burner is clearly on, but while the center of the burner is glowing, the small wire isn’t. Perhaps it’s a timing issue? I’ll be running some more tests this weekend.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

>>>All of the air comes up through the burner column into the burner head. We tuned it to work at a variety of elevations.

And perhaps to reduce CO?

Funny that the "glow wire" doesn't glow……….

…perhaps to reduce CO?

I would assume so. I mean it’s not like MSR is unaware of the CO issue with the Reactor burner. It takes a certain amount of heat to “drive” the circulation of air through the Reactor burner. At full tilt, the air flow works reasonably well. Turn it down, the circulation doesn’t quite work right, and the CO goes through the roof. [that’s from memory from reading one of Roger Caffin’s write ups on the stove]

With the Windboiler, gone are the Venturi tubes. They’re using what looks like a fairly conventional ported burner column (note that the burner head is anything but conventional).

Presumably, the new method of bringing air into the burner works well with out sending the CO output climbing. MSR has gone to a lot of trouble to make this a highly adjustable burner. It has good simmering capabilities based on my testing so far. They have to have considered CO output at low settings. I don’t have any way to independently verify that though.

Funny that the “glow wire” doesn’t glow…

Yeah. That was my thought too. Seems odd that it’s offset from the center of the burner since the center of the burner is (based on my experience so far) what is going to heat up first. I popped another question out to MSR earlier today on that very subject.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

Has there been anyone here checking out the Primus Eta Lite? I haven't found a good review of that anywhere, just the older Eta Solo.

Now that the lightest offering is being dropped, the Eta Lite is right there with Jetboil and MSR on weight. Primus lists it as 355g (12.5oz) but that could be marketing numbers.

Things I like about it from the marketing material is how solid the connection between stove and pot seems to be. One of the reasons I still drag my old (but stripped down) jetboil pcs is the fact that I can hold it while it's doing its thing. I've sat with it with the canister between my legs to keep it warm in winter and it worked well.

The strap closure system looks neat – means I can probably replace the lid with something simpler without having to worry about it all falling apart

Would be curious if anyone had any hands on: http://www.primus.eu/eta-lite

Well, I wonder, as that 'telltale' is at the side and at lower elevations the mixture is not so rich so that only the center of the burner will glow, is it possible that the flames don't reach the 'telltale' at that altitude ?