Primaloft gold

chart didn't post well.

I would second this question. I recently completed first quilt (based on Ray Jardine's kit) for me and my wife and I'm now looking to make some for hammocking for just myself.

The CLO of primaloft gold is very attractive, but everyone says that apex is so trivial to work with in comparison.

Would it be possible to quilt Primaloft the same way Ray Way quilts are quilted, with a wide loops of yarn as opposed to stitching fabrics together? That way guarantees no compression of insulation but I don't know if the 2 strands of yarn that end up being the stabilizer are enough for Primaloft to stay put.

No experience with PL Gold here but my experience with it's ancestor (Primaloft 1) might still apply.

Several years ago I made a quilt using Primaloft 1 pre-quilted between Thru-Hiker M90 and the kind of scrim that came with every Primaloft iteration I've received. The quilting interval was every 6 inches. I used the M90 side of the quilted Primaloft 1 as the liner fabric and I added an M90 shell. I've also made a quilt using Apex without quilting or the Ray-Way yarn stabilizing idea.

The Primaloft 1 quilt does not perform as well for me as the Apex quilt does on a temp rating vs CLO basis.

Speculation here … perhaps the frequent quilting is a factor or perhaps being "squeezed" between fabrics restricts the loft?

Regarding not quilting … before assembling the Primaloft 1 quilt I removed the scrim from some scraps and decided that the result was too fragile to not be quilted between layers. YMMV of course and PL Gold may be different than PL 1 in that regard but I'm inclined to think not … they are both short staple insulation.

I have made a couple of quilts using polarguard, pants out of climashield and jackets out of primaloft. I definitely wouldn't consider making a quilt out of primaloft. One of the things that damages insulation is being pulled out of the stuff sack. Having a big panel of primaloft is just asking for damage as far as I am concerned. Primaloft is fairly fragile. The last time I made something with primaloft, it was damaged just in shipping. Until it is enclosed in nylon, you have to be very careful with it. You most definitely cannot quilt it in the same way as a ray way quilt. It would just pull the primaloft apart inside. Also, primaloft has a scrim with it that you can eliminate during construction if you are careful, but I would hesitate to do so with a quilt. Therefore, the weight savings of primaloft are offset anyway. There is a reason you only generally see primaloft in cothing and climashield in sleeping bags/quilts.

Does anyone know of the difference between the Climashield Apex offered by owfinc and thru-hiker?

Owfinc lists CS Apex at 2.2 and 6

Thru-hiker has CS Apex at 2.5 and 5

These are specifically marked Apex, not HL, which I know has a lower CLO.

My question is, are these actually different thicknesses of apex (2.2 vs 2.5 and 5 vs 6), or is this a case where some sellers measure their numbers a little different and market a little different.

Jim-
I am not positive on the generations (and marketing names) myself…
My understanding- Gold .92, Silver, .82, Black- .65 or so- Clo/oz.
I found some random posts that seemed to indicate that "one" was .82 clo.

If "one" was silver- the unfavorable comparison to Apex makes sense, especially in light of the loss of loft due to quilting. I very much agree with your speculation.

On the other hand- why is my Patagonia nano-puff so toasy warm?

Thomas-
Can't fault your logic or experience. The simple fact you don't see anyone use it in production of sleeping bags is probably enough indication there.

FWIW- I have some 4oz gold- the scrim peels easily. I can tug "tufts" off but haven't gone much further than that as I still have some hopes…

A HF member WV reported success with roughly 12" single line stitches. Only positive statement I've seen though.

Any suggestions on sewing up a pillow and beating it up? What's a decent test size and realistic method to try? Maybe a 12×18 pillow, sew two rows down the center so the quilting is 6"x12" grid? Toss it in the dryer with tennis balls and use it for xx days before I rip it open?

Vlad-
You don't have to Ray Way quilt Apex. Although if you find the layers shifting on you inside the shell- a few loops will help with that if you twist and turn in the night. If you go much more than 5oz though the quilting loops would probably be good.

Maybe Tim can chime in on the weights…
I think that "Apex 2.5" and "Apex 5.0" were more marketing (rounding) than fact. Tim lists his Apex as a 2.1 or 4.0 (6.0 and 8.0 too) layers. I've never put my Apex on a scale to verify the actual weight.

That said- I believe a manufacture could make a custom thickness. Never personally tried it from anywhere but Thru-hiker.

The only "ding" I can say about Apex- I have experienced varying degrees of quality/thickness in the batts before. It's kinda like cotton candy and the only way I can describe it is it occasionally looks like a layer got folded over here and there- or what cotton candy would look like if you pulled it apart a bit with some thinner and thicker (denser) parts.

Thanks Bill

ripstopbytheroll just got authorized to carry Apex and they seem to list 2.5 and 5oz weights, just like thru-hiker. From Tim's weights, I would guess he is counting his layers at 2 and 6 to create his weights.

In the end I will probably only get my answer after I make the thing and take it down to its limits.

According to what RipStopbytheRoll advertizes on their website Gold is the new name for One and Silver is the new name for Sport.
By their count the PL Gold has the highest CLO of .92 followed by CS Apex at .82 and then PL Silver at .79

I've been wanting to make some insulated sleeping booties for a while and would love to know more about how PL and CS compare in this application. Would be using the Apex 2.5 or the PL Gold.

Both polarguard and climashield have varying thicknesses. It concerned me at first but by the time it's in a quilt, you can't tell anyway.

I know it's tempting to go with the insulation with the higher clo value, but keep in mind that that number is when the insulation is brand new. My uncle and I both bought thru hiker kinsman pullovers at the same time. I made mine, used it on a thru hike as well as for tons of other trips and, although it has lost loft, it is still great. My uncle finally made his this last winter and I was very surprised at how fluffy his was compared to mine. You need the drapability of the primaloft in clothing, so it's worth using it despite the fact that it losses loft faster and is more fragile. It also doesn't necessarily get crammed into a stuff sack every day. For a sleeping bag/quilt, the drapability is less important. I suspect that after the first few nights, a primaloft quilt would lose whatever clo advantage it had anyway.

Bear in mind too, primaloft has strength in one direction but not the other when you pull on it. If you make a piece of clothing with it properly, you should be orienting the insulation so that the quilting lines run the right way the strengthen it, rather than weaken in. Running quilting lines vertically and horizontally in a quilt may not help stabilize the insulation much more than just running them horizontally.

As for primaloft vs climashield for booties, either will probably work. It might be easier to sew them if you use primaloft because you're going to have small curved seams in a tight space.

Thanks Jessie- I knew I saw that somewhere but couldn't figure out where or if I imagined it…

So I guess then that previous experience with PL ONE applies as mentioned above.
Likely the extra quilting does lead to a loss of insulation value then and put it on par with Apex when it's all said and done. So Apex it is.

Sigh…

I suppose- if you made a light 1 layer (3 or 4 oz) PL in a completely sewn through design you'd basically end up with a functional piece of gear even if the PL fell apart? Say it totally degraded- you'd basically just have a sewn through down bag made from PL?

Really though I'm just coming up with excuses to justify a poorly planned purchase. Oh well- likely that stuff will sit on the shelf until it's time to make some clothing.

Thanks everyone!

What about using baffles? Jessie said PL has strength in one direction. 6" baffles that run PL in the strength direction lenght-wise would give you the loft without cold spots. Harder to sew though

Thanks- looks like we posted at the same time.

The strength comment is a big help. I may yet try a small UQ or something as I have the insulation. For a light 40/50 degree UQ it may yet make sense, I think the drapability comes into play a bit on that project.

Is the weak axis typically across the material then? It seems like that's what you are saying but want to make sure.

And I agree- I think you accurately point out the biggest problem with the short filament insulations- they just don't hold up well. I do loose stuff my synthetics, but still… A heavy season or two means a 5-10 degree downgrade in my experience.

Tempting CLO value indeed- but thanks all for the discussion on the topic!

Would be interested to hear more about weight(s) of Apex still- my only other complaint with it would be that you're locked in to a 2/4/6/8 Clo system.

Honestly can't remember which way is weak when pulling on Primaloft. I'd assume the strength is probably in the length of the insulation though because otherwise you'd think it would want to tear while being manufactured and rolled.

Well, shucks, lol.
I only have a 2yard piece so I don't want to go tugging on it too much.

A question you may know the answer to-
If I leave the scrim on- is it durable/tough enough to serve as a layer of fabric? Looking at my nano-puff I note that the quilting is on one side and the liner fabric of the jacket is un quilted. Was thinking of quilting to outer shell/scrim only and leaving the inner shell unsewn and taking the .4oz/yd penalty for the chance at a little more warmth.

Or just screw it and loose the scrim- the body of the hammock would serve as an unsewn liner in an UQ application. Peeling a corner of the scrim it seems stable enough that I could pull it as I sew without it falling apart on a true sewn through.

Again- thanks for the help.

I don't know if the scrim would be strong enough. I think it's tear strength might not be great. I don't have any handy to test though; I'm just going by memory. If I remember correctly through, when I weighed the scrim that I removed from my kinsman, it weighed around the same amount as one layer of the m90. In other words, you're probably not saving weight by using the scrim as opposed to lightweight nylon. I definitely wouldn't leave it bare. That's getting into "stupid light" territory imho. Also, I seem to remember the scrim being kinda porous like netting and I would think it would let dirt through to the insulation too easily.

my apologies- poorly explained on my part.

Option 1- no scrim full sewn through quilting
Shell-insulation-shell- sew through all three layers.

Option 2- use scrim for quilting to allow one shell to trap a little more air.
Shell-insulation-scrim- quilt these three layers- then sew on shell.

Anyway-
The scrim is like synthetic tissue paper- it is easy enough to tear with out much effort. playing with it again I would imagine simply sewing it the needle perforations would pretty well cut it.

Someone PM'd this to me-
http://locusgear.com/products-2/bivys/nyx-synthetic-quilt?lang=en

It's PL One/Gold- looks like a roughly 12" quilt pattern…

I think that I will try something- maybe a small torso UQ on a 12×12 grid or so. I'll have to think on it a bit. In the UQ- that type of Grid pattern may be better anyway to help the insulation contour/break better from a design perspective anyway.

In theory- if it's short filament it should be weak in both directions unless the filaments are some kind of hybrid right? I'll try to get Kyle at RBTR to dig up more.

down will give twice the CLO per ounce

the CLO per ounce of synthetics doesn't last very long, gradually compresses

How's that work?
One yard of down, 1.5" thick would equal one yard of 2.5 oz apex at 2 CLO or 40f, correct?

36x36x1.5"=1944 cuin
1944/900= 2.16 oz of 900 fill.
Assuming no overstuff still not double, add 15% OS and you're at 2.5 oz. or basically dead even.

A bit new to this clo stuff and down, so what don't I get?

Add baffle weight and it's worse at these temps…

For thinner bags down has less advantage because the fabric is a bigger percentage of total weight. Plus the weight of the baffles.

For 2.5 oz apex, CLO = 2.05 like you said

By my measure http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/adams-torso-simulator.html

To get the same CLO, you need 1.44 oz/yd2 of down (2.07 oz/yd2 for the down * 2.27 CLO I measured for Apex / CLO I measured for down * 2.5 oz/yd2 speced weight of 2.5 oz Apex / 2.42 oz/yd2 actual weight of my Apex)

If you use Argon 67 for both sides and baffles, that's 1.35 oz/yd2.

The loft of the down would be about 0.75 inch. I'de make the baffle spacing 1.5 inches. Baffles would be 0.75 + 0.5 inch on each edge for raw edge so that 1.75 inch. So that's another 0.67 oz/yd2 * 1.75 / 1.5 = 0.78 oz/yd2.

So – total weight of Apex is (2.5 + 1.35) 3.85 oz/yd2. Total weight of down is (1.44 + 1.35 + 0.78) 3.6 oz/yd2. But no one would make a down layer that thin. This is the case where Apex is better. Maybe a 55 degree F bag.

If you did 5 oz Apex, that might be 30 degree F bag.

Apex would be 6.35 oz/yd2.

Down would be 2.88 oz/yd2 + 1.35 oz/yd2 for fabric + 0.6 oz/yd2 for baffles = 4.8 oz/yd2 = 25% less.

Plus the down compresses a lot more for packing – Apex bag takes a big pack – unless you really smash it down but then it will lose loft.

Or 7.5 oz Apex – 10 degree F? – 8.85 oz/yd2. Equivalent down is 4.32 + 1.35 + 0.5 = 6.2 oz/yd2. 30% less weight. So, as you get more loft, down is better.

Hi, guys. Good discussion. It prompted me to sign up finally. I'm using Primaloft Gold for panels about 12" wide for my insulated hammocks, but I wonder about the questions you have raised about durability. I may try making a pillow or sample panel and giving it a torture test, then taking it apart to see what the insulation looks like. It would be good to have an actual test of thermal efficiency, too. Maybe I'll make a large rectangular cozy so I can toss it in the freezer and measure internal temperature over time. Any suggestions for test methods will be welcome.