Grabbier fabric with DP/Xpac

Sounds like you're using a winged hipbelt? One option would be to switch to a full-wrap belt, which I find more comfortable, personally.

You could always get some slip-not fabric (quest and seattle fabrics both stock it). That seems overkill but it'll slip less than anything else I know of, and it's surprisingly supple for the weight (The stuff I got is 35 oz/yard, but I wasn't getting it for backpacking applications). You wouldn't be using very much of it, so the weight penalty wouldn't be too bad even if you used the heavy duty stuff.

Yes, wing style. Worked well for me before and keeps weight/construction down (I think?) My back panel is pretty narrow at 8", so depending on how you look at it it's a bit of hybrid.

On a full wrap belt- are you making the belt and slipping it into a sleeve? I have seen some people set the wings in, like some osprey packs, basically only attach 4-6" of belt to the body. I have a pretty rectangular waist, and wear a 40" belt, so 8" at my back has always been plenty on a wing style to damn near call it a full wrap if I understand it correctly. I fully admit though, many aspects of hip belts confound me. I've got a good dookie booty so always had good luck just setting the pack on my butt to keep it up- but no good with Xpac.

I am using some stays, so weight gets dumped hard on the belt, which is what I want.

So I just attach my hipbelts in two spots on the bottom of the pack. I really like the freedom of movement it gives me. I used buckles for my first pack and switched to velcro, which has been working great:

So there's one attachment like that on each side of the pack. They are 8" apart. I haven't build a frameless pack, so I don't know if it would work as well if that's what you're making – my attachment points are directly below the stays for my frame, so the weight transfer is very direct.

Gotcha- so your entire hipbelt is floating then and the frame dumps it onto the two spots. My internal frames terminate similar to yours, and my wings are only 8" apart.

I like it, much better than stitching the whole lumbar pad sleeve and adding that weight. It still wouldn't give me any more grab- however- it would solve my problem with too much stitching through or adding too much extra material of the Xpac and allow a totally different belt material.

I'll keep it in mind, and thanks!

Some PU coated nylon or cordura should be much stickier and also relatively waterproof. If your design relies on the grippy back material, you could just make the entire back panel out of it and use the DP fabric for the rest.

Try as I may, I've not figured out the secret of the 'grab.' High friction material alone is not the answer – what if you're wearing a shirt underneath that will slip, as most shirts will. Some packs have very wide belts to gain traction, but are heavy.

Putting the pressure on the two bony points on either side of the spine goes back to the Complete Walker and is often reported to work well, as in the above post. But the trade-off is that the hips cannot rotate freely while walking, which wastes a lot of energy. Did the TNF Back Magic slip – I don't know, but it was dropped.

I've tried an Osprey full moldable belt slipped through a 5" wide sleeve at the small of the back that allows some rotation, but the belt still slips downward. Adding a 5" wide lumbar pad helped a little, but also put too much pressure on the small of the back, and got uncomfortable. I also tried out a new TNF pack at a store that had a lumbar pad with a recess at the small of the back to avoid pressure on the spine.
But with around only 15 lbs. in it, it was quite uncomfortable. The very stiff foam may have contributed to that.

This is frustrating, because the full rotating belts I used for a long while could just be cinched a little tighter if there was slippage – so the issue was solved. So I intend to go back to that design, with sidearms that clinch the belt around the hips, do not slip, and allow the hips to rotate naturally up and down while walking.

So I'm back to square one, but trying to redo the design SUL, and trying to mimic an earlier design without really knowing why it worked so well.

I have never owned one of their packs but I did acquire an Aarn hipbelt (you can purchase the belts separately). I was interested in the design and thought I'd share as it may have some merit in this conversation.

Firstly Aarn incorporates a grippy textured siliconized "slip-not" fabric that is remarkably sticky to the touch.

Secondly they have incorporated a really neat design that hinges the belt (via an "S" shaped seam that divides dual density foam from a more pliable 3d mesh) around the front of the hip. Based on some admittedly hacked testing, it actually seems to conform to the hips remarkably well without being super tight or restrictive.

I have always wondered if a set of larger and lesser "hinges" could be incorporated into the back of a full-wrap belt design for a more dynamic load bearing belt, as opposed to the more typical "squeeze-it-and-slam-it-down" conical design.

Maybe something … maybe not.

Thanks, Christopher*, for pointing out the Aarn hip belt. Researched it a bit, and ordered one from Aarn USA. Really like my existing MYOG pack, and if the slippage can be prevented, no need to build another pack. At least not right now, when building a new tent is the top priority.

Hey Samuel.

I always find your posts and your creative process to be interesting. Im still at the stage where my ability to imagine gear far outpaces my skill at making gear, so I am keen to hear the opinion of a bonafide master-tinkerer. My imaginary perfect pack recipe has a few dashes of Aarn.

Bear in mind what you will be getting is actually half or maybe 2/3's of a belt … in the form of 2 hip-belt wings with velcro attachments for a non-existant pack body. I took mine and sewed them onto the back-half/back-third of an old ULA hip-belt in an abortive attempt to make a whole belt. (I got the angle of connection wrong and my neanderthal sewing skills kept me from being able to properly rectify into something I could actually use … but I got a decent sense of how the belt "could" perform.)

There is also a good bit of clutter on the belt you need to look past/remove … channels for the front-pocket stays, delta-wing webbing attachments for X-cross shoulder-sternum straps, blah blah blah … but I think the simpler aspects of the base design are what shine the brightest, including the "S" curved seam mentioned above and the integrated materials choice (an almost stretchy/springy 3D mesh called Müller 3mesh and the use of the "grippy" material on the stiffer portions of the belt).

I hope you post a follow up on your impressions particularly if you actually do some tinkering. Im always updating my recipe book.

(EDIT: If you want to see "inside the belt" before operating on your new belt, I can send you pics of mine. They have already been mangled.)

Bill,

Another option I had meant to mention is SuperFabric.

http://superfabric.com/

I got some samples about a year ago for a bike-pack frame bag project that never got off the ground (see neanderthal skills above).

The original intent of the fabric was to be highly resistant to abrasion, but there are highly-siliconized variants within their line that demonstrate remarkable "Sticky-factor". I think you'll find the weight of the fabric to be more in line with BPL mentality as well.

Thanks Christopher- both products look nice, agree the fabric is probably more in line with what I would be seeking.

For now-

I do like the "hinge" type feature you mentioned on the Aarn belts, I have found something similar to work simply by sewing one seam down the center of a 4" belt so that the belt "breaks" at the midpoint and wraps the hips. I think this style is very effective for curvy folks, women in particular.

Unfortunately- all these styles require either a dual webbing buckle (one on top, one on bottom) or the style as shown on the aarn/osprey and others. I am trying to keep it to just one 3/4" connection. Both for weight/simplicity and to use the strap for headlamp attachment for night hiking.

I had some 3d mesh around still, I am going to try that in combination with a triangle wing style hipbelt (level on the bottom, 6" tall tapered to 2" and about 10" long) to see if I can get better results with that one. That shape generally allows you to get a good cinch below the hip bone, but the taper allows a little wrapping of the belt around the top of the butt/hips.

I'm thinking a small rectangle of 300d or 3d mesh at the back panel area might help too but going to try without it.

I've been playing with some pretty radical pack designs lately, and the various changes keep having unforeseen results in other components. Hopefully I can dial in some kind of combination of body/belt/shoulders that is close and then dial in from there.

I have found two things-
If you raise or taper the bottom of the pack, that does help with a little of the body material sag and transfer weight better. Right now I have a 1" height difference I'm playing with. (The outside or front is 1" shorter than the backpanel piece- the sides taper to match)

The other thing that helps is a round bottom- I have been starting this at the top of the hipbelt and doing a radius in the side panels to match the depth of the pack. The "butt bumper" this creates lets the pack snug into your lumbar area a bit but still get good purchase on your ass. I have a big butt, I don't think this would work well on most folks with more athletic body types.

Forgot-
Seeing the aarn belt reminded me of an old though never tried.

Nothing fits better than a climbing harness- what about using that to build your pack off of. Some of the UL sport harnesses are quite light and easy enough to chop up. A local climbing gym or outfitter may even have used ones that have been "retired" but would be perfectly serviceable for a pack.

"I think this style is very effective for curvy folks, women in particular."

And bony. I'm tall and curve deprived.

Reading with interest as I'm planning to rebuild a belt on my DIY pack. Used bad foam that sort sunk under use, belt to long and narrow. I want to go much wider and maybe switch to 3d mesh.

May I get your takes on this picture from Aarn? This shows the way I've historically located my belts. But over time, and reading here, I've come to "realize" my belts have been riding way to low, that the middle of the belt should be right about at the top of the "illiac crest" if that is the topmost part of the lateral pelvis. Aarn shows only the top part of their belt above that crest. Am I overestimating degree of conventional wisdom and underesting individual preference? I know, broader topic, but I'll ask here since you're talking hipbelts and here is where the photo pops up.

Charley,

So I'll give you my take based on experience and lots of reading over the years. It may be right, it may be wrong so take it for what it is worth.

Some belts are designed to be hip-belts and some are designed to be waist-belts. Waist-belt conical designs are more common in lightweight packs, and the design is somewhat predicated on the idea that the users hips will be wider than their waists. Load pulls the belt down onto the wider anatomy and the belt "sticks". However if you have no ass, or if you are reverse proportioned (ie: large belly) waist belts can be prone to slippage, requiring constant adjustment and lots of overly tight cinching.

The Aarn belt is designed to be more of a hip-belt in the front (despite what the pic suggests the Aarn belt IS NOT a full wrap belt, which I personally consider to be a shortcoming for the chicken-butt camp). What is hard to make out in that picture is the "hinge" mentioned above in this thread.

Find the "S" shaped line that starts with the lower ladder-lock on each front side. This seam divides a stiffer foam component on the lower/back portion and a very flexible (almost stretchy) 3D mesh on the upper/front portion. The flexible mesh is intended to fold around the anatomy while bracing the stiffer foam portion under/around the illiac spine. This is the neat design feature that I really wanted to point out in the above thread, as it struck me as being simple and effective.

A few ideas Bill:

X51 has a textured face not unlike 1000D cordura. Might give you what you want.

Kifaru puts a patch of spandura on their lumbar pads to combat slippage. Never used it myself, but the theory seems sound.

The Seek Outside hipbelt is outstanding in this respect, both due to the full wrap design (as mentioned above) and the foam construction. The fairly but not excessively pliant foam really sticks to individual variations in hip/butt shape.

Thanks!

I'll add a little spandura to my next order…
I agree, don't think you'd need much more than a little butt bumper's worth.

I fully understand why you just order these things. :)

I think without the high quality foams (and molded foams) of the full time folks this is a big challenge for any MYOG folks.