high loft wool sweater

–

I think that the stuff from the Dachstein area is great. I have family from Ramsau am Dachstein and have spent lots of time (and money) at Lodenwalker (and lots of time in those mountains!!! :D). Even though its felted, warm and amazing, I don't really think of their material as "high loft". I do have some cashmere/silk/wool blended sweaters from discount stores like Kik in central Europe that I like to think of as lofty (if that applies to wool; at least light and fluffy) and I like them more than 100 wt fleece. I use them under a rain jacket or windshirt in the Northeast and they work perfectly, are surprisingly stuffable and durable, never smell, and breath better than any other insulation I know. They are also surprisingly warm if you have a windblocking layer. I am not sure where you could find something similar here, but I would start by looking at Sierra Trading Post. Even better is a turtle neck made out of this cashmere/silk blend.

Edit: I looked around and don't see anything like it available here. And nothing similar that is low priced like the ones in the budget clothing stores in Vienna where I grabbed most of them. Sorry.. :( Also one negative of this type of light, fluffy wool sweater is that it pills quite a bit.

I hate people who counter my questions with answers I'm not looking for, but…

I had the exact same pursuit as you. I really wanted a high-loft wool layer for a warm when wet bit of durable insulation.

Not satisfied with what I found (most ended up being laughably heavy when damp), I now use a midweight wool baselayer top coupled with a Patagonia 1/4 zip Microfleece. Shown here:

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-micro-d-and-quarter-zip-fleece-pullover?p=26267-0

The Micro-D has great loft, weighs 8oz, packs to the size of a softball, and is durable and simple. No frills. It's a good piece that might be a good cross-purpose item for you.

If you want high loft "wool" sweaters that are very warm for the weight, you need to start looking at the other wools/animal hair. Particularly Angora Rabbit fur and Mohair (the other "Angora").

These are usually more "fuzzy" and lofted. Angora Rabbit is usually blended with other fibers like Merino, Alpaca, nylon, etc because it's on the fragile side, but it has crazy, light and near down like warmth. Just 25% Angora added to a sweater or what not, really improves the insulation factor. I have some sweaters with Angora Rabbit fur, which are pretty warm for their weight, but again, the durability goes down.

Mohair is one of the most durable and strong of the animal fibers (if not the most, with Alpaca, Yak, Bison, Qiviut, and silk being up there too), but tends to be noticeably coarser than Merino, Cashmere, higher quality Alpaca, etc and thus not as soft to the skin and less insulating (though sometimes the fibers are more hollow which help to balance that).

I have a "hand knit in New Zealand" sweater i bought on ebay awhile back, that is made out of 67% Mohair, 30% nylon, and 3% (Sheep's) wool. It is very loosely knit, kind of on the fuzzy side, only weighs 7 oz and some change, and combined with a windjacket is surprisingly warm, especially for the weight. Significantly warmer than a lot of the more tightly knitted and heavier Merino (11 oz +) or even Cashmere or Alpaca sweaters i have. It's not so much the insulation properties of Mohair vs the Merino etc, but rather the structure and design of the sweater. It's sort of a akin to comparing light weight regular fleece to high loft, high void grid or thermal pro fleece. More air is stilled with less material/weight. However, the downside is that it will compress easier, so best not to put anything heavy on top (but again the nice thing about Mohair is that it's springy, resilient, strong and durable–much more than Sheep's wool unless the latter is multiply twisted, felted, etc).

My ultimate cold weather sweater would have a similar design as the above, but also blended with high quality Alpaca, some Angora, the Mohair being the finest/smallest fibers possible, and maybe throw in a little high quality silk (very fine/small and trilobal shaped fibers that per fiber still a lot of air but are still pretty strong and decently durable).

If you want seriously warm wool for a given weight, then get some qiviut. That is the wool from a musk ox, like in Alaska.

Unfortunately, the stuff is hideously expensive.

–B.G.–

> I really wanted a high-loft wool layer for a warm when wet bit of durable insulation.
Unfortunately wool fails all of those requirements.
It is not warm when wet – it can be quite lossy while it dries over 12-24 hours.
It is not strong when wet – people have accidentally poked holes in their wool thermals when wet.
It is not very durable when wet, with a very high propensity to felt up into a solid mass if it doesn't break.

Note that the term 'high-loft' is not normally used for wool anyhow, and would seem to imply very fine fibres which are particularly bad when wet. Dachstein gear uses very coarse fibres for strength, and deliberately felts them up first.

> (most ended up being laughably heavy when damp),
Yes, both wool and cotton absorb huge amounts of water. Wrong fibre for the job.

Wool is good for wool-blend socks, mens suits, fluffy wool jumpers at home in the dry, and fashion clothing.

Cheers

Angora Rabbit fur is warmer per less weight, but much less durable, than Qiviut. Also not hideously expensive.

Reason why Angora is warmer per less weight than Qiviut, is that the fibers are often similar sized (the finer the fibers, the more insulation potential), but instead of being solid like Qiviut fibers, they are often fairly hollow as well, which equals more stilled/trapped air which equals more insulation.

Angora rabbit might be tastier than musk ox.

–B.G.–

Roger, while i somewhat agree with you about Sheep's wool in the form of sweaters, some of the other animal fibers are more suitable in some of those areas.

Some have lower moisture regain, are more hollow so they dry faster and weigh a bit less, and have higher tensile strength per individual fiber. Alpaca and Mohair for example, often ticks all those boxes (really good quality/more fine Mohair fibers are not so hollow usually though).

Also, the trick is to have a looser and fluffier knit. This is not as practically feasible with Sheep's wool because it is really weak when wet unless coarse, highly twisted, and/or felted, but it is more feasible with some of the other animal based fibers.

Even then, some nylon (or other synthetic) content is a big help, like that 7 oz mostly Mohair sweater that i have (30% nylon).

the Dachstein looks nice, but it's very close to what I already have w/ the Patagonia guide sweater and the Norwegian army sweater- quality, tight weave wool sweater- will shed moisture and wind better, but am looking more for loft-have a shell that will shed wind wind/moisture

the qiviut looks very interesting, but out of my league price wise

my lighter Patagonia sweater might be a cashmere blend???? lofty and very warm, I'll see if there is something similar (but heavier and warmer yet)

my light sweater is lambswool (right on the label :) ) I see they list their cashmere and lambswool sweater in "gauges"- assuming a 5 gauge is thicker than a 7, 7 thicker than a 9, etc???????

tia

Something like this will be pretty warm, provided there is a lightweight windjacket on top.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cashmere-Mohair-Angora-Sweater-Fur-Down-organic-FETISH-unisex-sexy-Pullover-/251476981419?pt=US_CSA_MC_Sweaters&hash=item3a8d3236ab

Doubt it's Cashmere though, most likely Mohair, but that's good because Cashmere isn't all that durable and prone to being eaten by mites.

Only the russians would look at that pullover and think, "Yep, that's sexy alright"

….in a game of Scrabble.

just get a thermal pro fleece

itll dry quicker than any wool and be warmer for the weight

;)

found this on flea bay- 5 gauge Cashmere from Patagonia

http://www.ebay.com/itm/361067089420?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=630409880148&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

"just get a thermal pro fleece

itll dry quicker than any wool and be warmer for the weight"

The thermal pro definitely will dry quicker and be a lot more durable, but something with a significant amount of Agnora and in the right design will be warmer per weight than even thermal pro fleece. Also is more comfortable, and doesn't stink. Seriously, this stuff is VERY warm. It's too bad it's not more durable though. It would be better using it more like down, more as a fill sandwhiched between two layers of thin synthetic.

ive never had to worry about stink in my fleece midlayers … the base layers take the brunt of that

not to mention that you can dunk it in a stream, wring it out and still wear it pretty well …. itll dry out with enough body heat

while wool might make sense for some people as a base layer, as a mid layer sheeps wool pales as a comparison to good fleeces

of course companies such as bankbreaker are trying to use jedi mind tricks to convince you otherwise

i have a 290 wt merino that takes forever to dry and aint all that comfortable wet

;)

I'm not talking about sheep's wool. Agreed that a thicker, mid layer made out of sheeps wool can take a very long time to dry.

Not all animal fibers are created exactly equal. Some of them do not absorb near the amount of moisture that Sheep's wool does. For example, Alpaca's moisture regain is roughly HALF that of Sheep's wool (and about the same as cotton, but it dries faster than cotton because the fiber structure is different and pockets of air within the fiber are common and meanwhile somewhat insulates while wet unlike cotton).

Generally speaking, i agree that synthetics do overall make better mid layers, however, the OP was looking for a natural based one for whatever reason(s), and so i was trying to give him better conceptual alternatives to sheep's wool.

Personally i like synthetic-natural blends a lot (especially for baselayers), but for some conditions prefer all synthetic mid layers. In cold weather, i use my Pat. Cap 4 hoody the most as a mid layer, and often a synthetic-natural blend baselayer.

However, none of this changes the basic fact that a well designed sweater with a significant percentage of Angora rabbit fur blended in, can be warmer per weight than even thermal pro fleece. That doesn't mean it's the best though, as the durability of Angora in woven/knitted form is pretty low.

> Not all animal fibers are created exactly equal.
They may not be exactly equal, but they are all made of keratin.
OK, some might have air holes in them: precious little effect on insulation ability though.

Great for fashion clothing. $$ though.

Cheers

Roger, curious how you would explain that Alpaca's moisture regain is half that of Sheep's wool?

And if air pockets in the fiber contribute so little to insulation value, then why do the more reputable seeming sources say that all other things being equal, that Alpaca fibers have about 20% more insulation potential per similar weight as compared to Sheep fibers? This is not just for Alpaca vs Sheeps wool either, Polartec claimed that their AirCore fleece was 20% more efficient in insulation per weight than their regular micro fleece. However, the studies that i've seen on insulation in woven type garments, DO state that ultimately, fineness of fiber can trump hollowness in insulation potential provided the solid fiber is significantly finer than the hollow fiber. But if the fibers are about the same size and shape, then if one is completely solid and the other has pockets or is more hollow, then it makes sense it would increase insulation as the various claims state.

Also, i don't need any research or marketing to tell me that higher quality Angora rabbit fur is significantly warmer than higher quality Merino or even Alpaca–i know this based on self evident experience with all three. Other than being somewhat more fine on average, the only other thing that can explain this to me, is the fact that Angora rabbit fur is one of the most hollow of the fine and more common animal fibers used in textiles.

Also the density of Angora rabbit fur is 1.15 g/cm3 to 1.18 g/cm3 compared to 1.33 g/cm3 for wool.

I would say that despite keratin being a common factor, there are enough differences between different animal fibers as to say that they can be significantly different. This makes sense in other ways too. For example, Alpacas are innately bred to more extreme climatic conditions than Sheep have been. It would make sense that their fiber would have more insulation potential.

Or take Angora Rabbits, which were both naturally adapted and human bred for certain qualities. It makes sense that such a small creature with little fat reserves, but which experiences moderate winters would have such an insulating coat, similarly and yet differently than Arctic Musk Ox (Qiviut) that are much, much larger and with more fat reserves, but which experience a much more severe and longer winter.

I would say that generally, the fibers and their qualities, match more or less the conditions that the animals were bred to, in relation to their body size and other factors. The main difference being in Merino Sheep, which are being so bred to produce smaller and smaller sized fibers.

As regards $$, while that is generally true, it also depends. If you're a bargain shopper like me, then you can pay very little for these more specialty fibers. Many of them i bought used or on clearance. I don't think i've paid more than 40 dollars for any of these specialty animal fiber based or blended sweaters.

While you can get Polartec Thermal pro relatively cheaply occasionally, a perusal of stores like REI and the like, will quickly let you know that the stuff isn't inexpensive on average either–especially not when the big name brands use the stuff (to which Polartec mostly licenses their tech to). The cheapest Polartec Thermal pro sweater type garment i've purchased was a gawd awfully heavy Woolrich brand gotten off STP, multiply discounted down to about 30 dollars.

Hi Justin

> how you would explain that Alpaca's moisture regain is half that of Sheep's wool?
Is it? Reference?

The alpaca fibres are often hollow. Less mass of keratin to absorb water.
I developed an instrument to measure the dynamic regain of a single fibre, long ago. The response time of the fibre is very low, but water vapour can take a long time to diffuse through the boundary layer around the fibre.

And if air pockets in the fiber contribute so little to insulation value, then why do
> the more reputable seeming sources say that all other things being equal, that
> Alpaca fibers have about 20% more insulation potential per similar weight as
> compared to Sheep fibers?
The crux of the matter is that the insulation derives almost entirely from the very thin boundary layer of air caught around the surface of the fibres. In the case of good duck down, there are millions of tiny fibre ends, which are especially effective in trapping air in a boundary layer. Because the alpaca fibres are thinner, they weigh less for the same amount of air trapped.

> the studies that i've seen on insulation in woven type garments, DO state that
> ultimately, fineness of fiber can trump hollowness in insulation potential provided
> the solid fiber is significantly finer than the hollow fiber.
Yup. Very hard to make solid scientific measurements there – I KNOW.

It is worth noting that the Merino sheep are NOT evolved for cold climates. They originally came from South Africa, but were further bred in the Australian outback – which can be a bit hot. It makes a lot of sense for small animals to evolve finer fibres and hollow fibres to minimise the amount of keratin their bodies have to generate.

But keratin is always weaker than synthetic fibes, and wet keratin even more so. The animals did not need high strength in the fibres.

Cheers

Interesting stuff Roger, thank for taking the time to go a bit more into detail.

Well we very much agree on the fact that in woven garments, synthetic is much more durable than animal based fibers.

Not directly related, but related a bit to Angora Rabbit fur indirectly. I remember reading a Scandinavian study that measured the thermal insulation values of Kapok fiber in general and specifically in comparison with duck down. They found that in comparison with duck down, the Kapok was about 15% less insulating per same weight.

Ok, i know there are various issues with Kapok, i only mention it as a comparison in relation to Angora Rabbit fur. Kapok fibers typcially average around 30 microns, which is fine but not super fine. They have quite hollow trapped air pockets in same.

Anyways, good quality Angora Rabbit fur, from German breeds, can have their down fiber diameters average from around 10 to 15 microns or so. This is at least half the size of average Kapok fibers (which tend to be more uniform). The Angora also has some scales verse the smooth Kapok fibers, which is a plus in Angora's favor.

The fact that many of these fibers are at the same time pretty hollow, makes me think that Angora Rabbit fur can at least equal, if not surpass low to mid quality duck down in insulation potential per weight.

It would not be good for large items like quilts or bags, because likely it won't compress as much as even lower quality down (but certainly more than Kapok), but it may be good for smaller items like vests, jackets, gloves, hats, etc.

Has anyone you know, or that you've heard, ever done any serious study or research into using Angora Rabbit fiber more as a "fill" rather than in knitted or woven garments?

Edit to add, "It is worth noting that the Merino sheep are NOT evolved for cold climates. They originally came from South Africa, but were further bred in the Australian outback – which can be a bit hot. It makes a lot of sense for small animals to evolve finer fibres and hollow fibres to minimise the amount of keratin their bodies have to generate."

I thought that Merino was traced back to Spain and near the Pyrenees? Some sources i've read think that originally they came from Turkey region. The principles of insulation can also apply to hot, especially for animals. That same insulative coat that Alpacas have that help to keep them warm in -30 degrees F., can also help to keep them protected in 95+ degrees F, with a very hot and intense sun beating down on them (high altitude near the equator).

In any case, whatever Merino were originally adapted to, they are being..hastened..to produce finer and finer coats from selection and breeding. Other animals adapted to extreme to moderate cold almost always have at least downy undercoats (and more coarse, hollow over coats are not uncommon either).

Take a look at people and their hair for a moment too. My ancestors come from cold regions (Scotland and Germany primarily). I have hair that is both fine, mostly straight, and densely packed, both on my head and on my body (somewhat common for people with ancestors from cold climates). Now look at people of African or Aborigine descent. Their hair tends to be rather coarse/thick, curly, and not as densely packed. I'd imagined that in a hot climate under a very hot Sun, that an afro would be cooler than my hair. Those coarse, curly hairs with a lot of volume block the Sun, but at the same time is very breathable and the fibers being very coarse do not still as much air.

Dunno from my perspective, hard to look at nature and not see the connections, particularly in animals that are not being forced bred continually for many centuries.

Btw, here is that research about Kapok fiber vs duck down. It's been awhile since i've read that study. A couple of clarifications. Seems it was more a Chinese study than Scandinavian, or more a Chinese/Swedish collaboration more specifically.

Anyways, heres the research paper link–very interesting and like i said, potentially bodes well for Angora rabbit fiber too, being more fine on average and less stiff/brittle than Kapok.
http://www.fibtex.lodz.pl/pliki/Fibtex_(y84a7zb771bl9jtq).pdf

Mike, sorry for the huge thread drift. If you would like me to erase these latter posts, give me the word and i will.