Winter layering/suffocation

If you dont wear the Monkeyman while active you could
ditch it and get a box wall down parka.

Suffocating or being constricted? It looks like the top layers at least would feel very restrictive if all worn at the same time.

deleted

Sorry, I should have been more specific.
On the move I just wear a few layers and I'm very comfortable.
The problem is when I'm in camp and temps drop below 10F. Particularly once I wear all that in a down bag. (Wm versalite). Kinda feels like I'm in a plastic bag or something…just need more air. But not warm enough to sweat. I tend to sleep cold.

I used the Monkeyman to try to get more breathable space between me and my down layer….but maybe that's making it worse?
Maybe double up down layers instead? Add a vest?

Too much stuff, ergo the miche man feel.

On top, wear the R1 against the skin, and whatever/any shell might be needed. Ditch the Monkeyman and Alpine Light for a proper winter coat (read: 8+ oz of down). Maybe you need a 100 weight fleece vest for moving when it's really cold. That should be it.

Similar approach elsewhere. As Rog says, warmth is as much about promoting blood flow as bludgeoning cold away with tons of insulation.

Edit: The Phase, R1, and Monkey are all in and of themselves very sticky layers. All together would be a particularly bad combo.

Christopher, I have no idea what you mean by your body suffocating.

I would add a breathable windshirt to protect against wind and light precip without trapping moisture.

For sleeping, I find the greatest comfort in simply using a warmer bag and not wearing any shelled clothing. Of course, this is less efficient weight-wise since you will still want a puffy for camp, but you will feel a lot less constricted. You can also drape your clothing over you, either inside or outside your sleeping bag to increase loft.

I'd be wearing the Alpine Light Down Parka over a midweight baselayer at 10F, but that's just me. Can't imagine wearing all that, and don't doubt you feel suffocated! Never liked stacking fleece.
Agree with Dave-less layers and more down if you're cold.

when the eskimos first saw the white man dragging their heavy sleds on arctic expeditions in their suffocating cotton clothing, they scratched their head and wondered who would do such a stupid thing

those white men with the protestant work ethic, would keep on dragging those sleds till they literally sweated themselves silly then dropped from exhaustion or hypothermia (after they stopped) …

eskimos were much more sensible, they used dogs for that work … they also knew than in an arctic environment to sweat is to die

this is a concept that most folks who dont spend some time in winter outside fail to understand and a mistake most folks invariably make at least once

in more moderate climates its considered noble to work your azz off and go hard, sweat, and give it everything … most folks from the city or moderate locals also want to try to stay warm before they get moving and even when moving

what they fail to realize is that by trying to stay warm at the start by over dressing, they are setting themselves up for sweating out their layers … this is very bad in winter as the moment you stop (and youll need to stop sometime) the evaporative cooling takes a hold and you get chilled if not hypothermic exceptionally fast

the eskimos understood this and moderated their pace (with the clothing at the time you couldnt easily vary your layers) … and were thus thought by white men as lazy bums

the modern man or woman generally fails to understand this as well, and over and over again youll see folks who wear way too much on the move in the winter … and thus sweat out their layers and get cold/hypothermic after

up to fairly recently they only sensible method was to vary your pace as the layering system consisted of many layers that were impractical to keep taking on and off all the time under winter conditions, especially if you are on the side of a mountain in heavy winds, or on belay on technical ice

however in the 80s a new breed of climbers emerged who were doing very rapid alpine ascents, these folks developed a system by which they could minimize the sweating while keeping warm when still … your body heat will generally keep you fairly warm when moving

rather than use many layers … they wore perhaps 2-3 at most as an "action suit" … these layers stayed on most of the time and were suited to the "maximum" exertion conditions that the climber would face …. ie they hopefully wouldnt sweat it out too much (some sweat when someone runs up a mountain in a day is unavoidable)

when stopped they put on a good sized "belay jacket" … which they put on immediately when stopped … this preserved the heat that they had built up when moving and reduced the evaporative cooling from whatever sweat was built up

now most of us here arent hardcore fast and light alpine climbers … but the principle remains

dress for the temperature you expect to be, not for what you are now …. in other words be proactive about your insulation … if you expect to warm up moving, start off cool or even cold, by the time youve warmed up yr already sweating on yr layers … the moment you stop, anticipate being cold and put on that poofay, by the time its cold its too late

either that or do as the eskimos did and moderate yr pace

a light fleece in winter is useful and i am a big fan of fleeces, but DONT WEAR IT if it means youll sweat … save it for technical terrain or descents where moving slowly means you generate less body heat and where you may not generate enough heat from movement to offset the cold temps

everyone has different systems that work for them … but the principle in winter always remains the same to sweat is to die

for further reading from a respected alpine writer climber … and one of the leading researches in cold weather/hypothermia injuries

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/kinrec/hlhpri/media/Cold_Weather_Clothing.pdf

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_art_of_not_suffering

;)

Good articles eric

You need a high collar with a zipper that goes all the way from top to bottom so you can unzip for venitlation if you're warm, or zip it all the way up if you're cold

You should wear as little as possible so you don't sweat. In mild temperatures (like down to 25 F) you only need a base layer and jacket, although the articles were more focused on colder temperatures where an additional fleece layer would be good

I object to those plots

For example figure 3, center panel, heavy work will increase skin temperature – but the dark line shows the skin temperature about the same. And the slope of the dark line is less, but if you have heavy work, you will produce more heat, so the slope of the line will increase – the dark line should be drawn with the left end at a higher temperature and the right end at the same temperature.

And they don't show where the freezing point is which is a key point to what they're talking about – you want the dew point to be above freezing.

May as well not put plots like that if they're not correct and showing the relevant information

Eric, all good points, but Christopher's clothing list is not an active clothing list, it's a total carried clothing list for active and stationary.

I find that wearing extra layers when starting helps me warm up quicker and it's not a huge inconvenience to stop and shed some.

the graphs are actually extremely useful as a general guide …

namely that having 2 thinner layers rather than one thick layer, the condensation will more likely get trapped between the layers than within a single thick layer …

you deal with this all the time … which is the principle of overbag and why synth over down is so effective in managing condensation

they also show that a higher output can push out condensation from the system … which is why hawt nalgenes work to some degree … they can help push moisture out of a system

or, as anyone who has gotten their clothes damp know, a bit of moderate activity in camp can generate the body heat to help dry out their synth (good luck with thicker wool or cotton!!!) layers

the basic principles demonstrated are sound (even if the layering system is a bit outdated being over a decade old), they had better be they were presented to the Winter Wilderness Medicine Conference =P

they are not meant for us "expert" BPLers of course ;)

as to dressing "warm" to start … that requires ALOT of self control … many folks, and ive made the same mistake more than once, plan on taking off the layer once they get warm, but often they leave it on too long

by time one feels oneself being warm, and many leave it till they are hot, theyve already sweating in their layer

remember that you might not feel yourself sweating as the extra layers in winter easily absorb the sweat before you start feeling damp from it … however that moisture is still in the system

the one sure way to tell is by water consumption …. if you are constantly drinking more than your feel you should be in winter, youre over exerting or wearing too much … over and over again youll see overdressed folks gobbling down water because they are expending MORE energy than they should overheating

;)

I agree, the article is good over all

And those plots weren't all bad, like the two layer one was fine, and the general trend of it getting colder as get further from the skin

But still, those plots are very poor

Great info here so far. Thanks guys.
Sounds like the key takeaways are less layers is better, layering fleece on fleece = yuck, and that my alpine light is weaksauce for 5-15F when stationary.

That said….here's some ideas I've been toying with:
TOP:
-R1 hoody
-Arcteryx Atom LT. (Breathes well, synthetic))
-Montbell frost line parka (6.7 oz down, box construction)

OR

-Cap 2
-R1
-100 wt fleece vest
-big O down parka? Which one?

OR

-R1
-MB thermawrap vest
-big huge down parka?

BOTTOM:
-Cap 4
-Down pants (goose feet)

The Atom LT under the Frost Line should work.

christopher … do you own a windshirt?

base (R1/cap4/t2/t3)->windshirt/light softshell -> light synth puffy -> heavier down/synth puffy is the "standard" modern climbing layering system

the entire system is "additive" … that is you never have to remove one layer to get to another … if yr warm you simply take off the top layer, and if yr cold you simply add a layer … this is possible because beyond the base, every other layer is wind resistant

ultimately you have to find what works for you … no one here can tell you whats right or wrong for your purposes with any real certainty

your exertion level when snow shoeing up steep hills for example is much different from belayed technical climbing, even if they are at the same temps …

i own an atom lt and for me personally it has to be pretty darn cold before i wear it when going up hill at a decent pace, or it needs to be technical terrain where one is moving more slowly … but everyone is different

for more on using these micropoofays read this …

http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/the-micro-belay-parka/

;)

Yep I have a windshirt I typically use for 3 season. Perhaps I should consider it for winter too..
For on the move snowshoeing I usually just do phase SV and R1 for super cold trips.
(or phase sl and MEC T3 for milder temps)
R1/T3 have long zips, so ventilation is good, and I wear my OR helium if it gets really windy.

Overall I'm pretty good on my active set up. It's the in camp and sleeping where I have cold/suffocation issues.

Just reread your comment here:
base (R1/cap4/t2/t3)->windshirt/light softshell -> light synth puffy -> heavier down/synth puffy is the "standard" modern climbing layering system

Considering this now:
R1
rag xenon (synth fill…not as breathable as atom LT…but I already own it)
MB mirage (5.3 oz 900 fill)

VS

R1
Atom Lt
MB frostline (6.7oz 800 fill)

Overall I'm pretty good on my active set up. It's the in camp and sleeping where I have cold/suffocation issues.

ahhh … now i see that i misunderstood your problem

i assumed you got too cold while moving, put on too much, then overheated and got too cold again when cooling down

if you are getting cold when not moving or sleeping … the only solutions that i can suggest are

– more insulation … bigger puffy, or double up on em … the fire god is on the side of large amounts of down … if you never want to be cold again something in the 10+ oz 800+ fill down range … belay puffy pants that you put on/off over your normal ones can help as well

– more fatty/protein foods … those keep you warm at night … also keep hydrated

– more sleeping insulation … warmer pad (if your dont have a good one already) and warmer bag

you can trouble shoot to see which works the best … for me an alpine light with ~4oz of down would be very marginal in the temps you indicated when static, even with a fleece

the simple fact though is that when you arent generating heat from movement youll be bundling yourself up in insulation, and if its cold enough youll look like the michellin man

before you spend more money i suggest working with mostly what you already have … perhaps you have a lighter puffy already that fits under the alpine light? … if i had to buy one thing for those temps though it would be a puffy with ~8-10 oz of quality down

;)

The Mirage is an outstanding piece, that and the xenon would be well good to you 10F.

I tend usually feel constricted if i wear too many layers, whether sleeping or active, particularly if more than one layer is on the tighter side.

I've not yet experienced severely cold conditions, probably the coldest i've slept in is around -3 *F or so. A thin, somewhat snug fitting baselayer, a Cap 4 top with hood, a looser fitting windshirt (usually a Houdini, but not always), and a warm down jacket (usually a New Balance Fugu jacket)*. Bottoms, less picky and usually less layers. If using down pants, then only two layers, if not then 3 layers.

I've done this with a 0 degree EE quilt and all season neo air pad and was fine, and quilts aren't the most efficient in these kinds of conditions. However, i tend to be a warm sleeper.

*When i'm outside of my quilt at camp, i switch these. I wear the loose fitting windshirt over the down jacket.

For 5F, you need more insulation on your feet, head, and probably legs.

For the top, just wear:

* baselayer
* medium to thick fleece
* the thickest down or synthetic parka which will keep you warm enough (only you can determine what that is)
* if there's more than a light breeze, a shell to block wind, which will otherwise destroy your insulation

For the head, you need a thicker or insulated hat combined with a fleece or acrylic balaclava.

For the feet, you need either insulated booties, neoprene covers, or a mukluk-ish system.

Edit:
If you're just hanging around camp, try this instead of a warmer down jacket:

* Just go to bed in your warm sleeping bag. Read or listen to music or the howling wind from the blizzard. (but the latter might make you colder!)

* stuff your sleeping bag inside your shell to make it like a thicker down jacket (don't sweat at all!)

* or: build a fire. There's the saying that fire warms you three times:
1. gathering firewood
2. cutting/splitting
3. burning

Nobody mentioned this yet so I thought I'd suggest the possibility that you actually were suffocating!

On a couple of occasions I have been so hermetically ensconced in winter tents that there was a build-up of CO2 that led to a frantic – and very real! – feeling of suffocation. Thankfully, unlike the situation with CO, our brains alert us to excess CO2 exposure in time to do something about it.

Even at -35F we need fresh air.