The 32 ounce problem

No help here…..only praise and envy. You have me beat by far.

About the minimum I've found I can get away with while still staying warm and having enough padding under me to allow me a night's sleep is about 35 oz. "Stormproof" probably needs to be defined though. The Stealth Nano is great in a rainstorm but when I need something snowproof my shelter weight bumps up to around the 32 oz mark all by itself.

Backpacking Light Stealth Nano Tarp (with guys and stakes) – 8.10 (shelter, stormproof)
Backpacking Light Headnet – .5 (bugs)
POE Uberlite pad – 8.00 (comfort)
Nunatak Quilt – 18.00 (insulation)

You're mostly ahead of me, although quilts for those temps can definitely get down below 16oz now. At EE, our 40° Enigma Elite (Reg/Reg size) comes in just under 13oz, though of course that may change based on your size. I have a custom one that's ~12.1oz (with 950fp down).

If you are a back-sleeper try a bridge hammock for sure!

What do you expect your overall hammock system to weight?

If you use poles, you could probably use those in place of the spreader bars.

(my hammock set-up is much heavier than my ground set up. I'm a side-sleeper, can't manage a bridge.)

Going by the specs of the Warbonnet bridge hammock, the hammock alone, with spreader bars, will be very close to your 32 oz limit. Then you need (in any hammock) under insulation, so 8 oz for a pad. Unless you go carbon fibre,your adequate tarp in silnylon will be about 12 oz. A bridge hammock needs a larger tarp than a gathered end, so there will be even more weight. For comparison,a warbonnet 10' travel hammock single layer in 1.1 nylon will weigh 11 oz with suspension. I have spent many nights in a variety of gathered end hammocks, and find them to be comfortable. I'm intrigued to find out why you find them poor in this respect.
You might find it useful to look at Sgt Rock's lightweight hammock load (45 oz) to get ideas
http://hikinghq.net/sul.html

Snowproof is out- 3 season for me is 40's- possible dip to 30's. A low 30's night is one of those- rest but don't sleep sorta things. So I'd call that the edge of it, but 90% of my trips are in that range, and any SUL trips would be in that 40 at night,60 ish days really.

Weight- 32 is about the bottom for me (and other's systems I've seen/heard of). Really though 36 is a bit more fair. I do a homemade bivy(12), Small neo-air(8), and home made quilt(12)but that is pretty slim. I think most of us have moved past the "stupid light" days. I added a bit to my bivy (poles)to pick up about 4 ounces, and switched to a women's neo-air for another three or so ounces. A little spreadsheet math let's me count my pillow elsewhere, but not much fun without it.

So about 40 ounces is more typical- but I have been playing stupid light exercises a bit lately and pondering the 32 oz limit. Curious to find out if 32 oz is still the "limit" I think it's pretty close without getting silly. You could do an 8 oz tarp, 14 oz quilt, and the old "pieces of pad" trick for about 4 oz and hit 26 ounces- but that's no fun and requires some good site selection and a bit of luck with the weather.

As to the hammocks-
Gathered end etc- I don't like them much personally- but for this discussion-
Even a smallish one- say 50"x 108"is still 4 yards of fabric. A small bridge uses 2yds.
Then you gotta cover it up and you could easily eat 8'x8' worth of tarp up even if you just use a headnet. So- on the gathered end, even a tight one, I don't see how you can overcome the fabric issues. Even at 1 oz body and .75 cuben you gotta be at 12 oz or so…plus suspension, lines, stakes. I'm all ears if a gathered end works for someone- but I can't see it on paper personally. Field tests for me are a better nights sleep in a bridge anyway. I can't do the full banana and need the diagonal lay of a big gathered end to make them work for me- closer to 54"x 120"…too much fabric.

The bridge-
I have a prototype right now- using 1.9 oz ripstop to work out the size/hang/dimensions. Quite tricky getting it just right- on number 4 now…
Planning to switch to 1oz Hyper D http://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/1-0-oz-hyperd-ripstop-nylon once I can nail it down.

I weigh 210 pounds, but I have found a way to make .490 Easton poles work. I don't use trekking poles, and I think using them is a spreadsheet trick really, but if you need them, use them. The poles on the warbonnet weigh about 10 oz, mine weigh around 4 oz for the pair. (less than most trek pole sets too I believe)

So far for the "naked hammock" in 1.9 oz including all the fixins and poles- 12 oz or so (still fiddling with endcaps).

Thinking- direct sewn UQ of 2.5 apex- adds about 6 oz.
Enclose with Sil-nylon (think Air-Bivy)- 6-8 oz.
Use a trimmed up top quilt- 12 oz or so?

Hammock- 12oz
Enclosure-6oz
UQ- 6oz
TQ-12 oz
36 ounces using no Cuben or fancy tricks.
Might not be able to shave it below 32 but may get close even in Sil.
Fabric body switch will save an ounce.
Better hardware (or no hardware) save an ounce.
Cuben- ounces??
Trim design ounce or so??
Possible very fancy trick- I may be able to make Nano-light poles work- but struggling with it.

Add back in the old feature creep problem and I'll probably finish at 36 though, lol.

Again- mainly curious where folks were at on the ground, and considering how far one could go if you took to the air.

Best I can do is 31oz for temps around 40F. With all the trees in the Southeast a tarp is pretty stormproof by my definition, others vary though. This is the "just in case" gear I take when doing long solo days where I most likely won't need them, but at 2lbs it seems silly not to take them along.

Pad – 12oz Neoair Xlite
MYOG 9×7 Tarp – 6oz cuben with stakes
MYOG Quilt – 12oz
Headnet – 1oz

Not that familiar with a bridge hammock really. Will the 1.0oz nylon stretch as much as in a full bodied hammock? I always saw those light 1.1oz nylon hammocks & found out real quick those were only for the little guys. Played with any of the 1.2oz polyester?

Ryan

I plan on adding just a little down to my sub-10oz quilt to get it down to 40F.
I also (if going as light as I can) don't mind sleeping on a cut down 1/4" pad.
That and I never sleep in camp sites so soft ground and a 1/4" pad in no problem.

MYOG Quilt – 11.6oz
1/'4 Pad – 3.6 oz
MYOG Bivy – 4.3oz
Cuben Tarp w/ 6 stakes – 5.5oz

Total – 25oz

If I swap out the 1/4" pad for the 8.1oz inflatable that brings me to 29.5oz

.

I like 25oz a lot better…

Cheers.

The bridge that started the trouble-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJSq9eceMAs&noredirect=1

On the fabric-
Not sure- I'm on bridge #4, likely to need 5 and 6 to nail the shape and hang.
Prototypes have been with the Jo-Ann 1.9 oz ripstop, the last one out of some 1.9 from Ripstopbytheroll. For some reason the stuff from ripstop by the roll comes in different grid patterns, not necessarily with any rhyme or reason. I bought chocolate and green- green has a micro grid like a 15 or 20d material.

Point being- no big change between the two different types of 1.9 oz. Oddly, I notice a little stress on the R.B.T.R stuff vs the JoAnn. I have the 1.0 Hyper D in hand- doesn't seem that different than a 15d grid except that it is a diamond (not just a square on a 45) so we'll see. The bridge (once you figure out your cut) does spread the load almost perfectly and even in the wide versions is only 48"- so stretch is not as horrible as the gathered ends.

Are you talking about Dutch's Poly D?
Haven't seen it in person.

Sigh- Hopefully bridge #6 doesn't turn into Bridge 7,8, and 9 to sort out different fabric stretch.

Although the magic of the small bridge- we're only talking 2.25 yards max for the body and endcaps, so if the 1.0 doesn't do it the 1.2 or 1.6 won't kill the project.

I knew there were a few folks floating around cracking 32…
Thanks!

2.5 Climashield will be cold for most at 40°. As a sewn on UQ, It had better fit PERFECTLY or you will get cold spots. Too tight (most likely due to stretch) and the insulation thins out.
Too loose and you get CBS (cold butt syndrome).

Lol- the folks at Hammock forums just finally got this concept through my head.

The question over there, that may be better answered here…
I get the perfect fit thing now.

But (pun intended)- would you actually maximize the warmth of the insulation by allowing the UQ to be a bit bigger than perfect and create a dead air space in the process. Assuming that the perimeter of the UQ meets the hammock edges correctly the warm air would have nowhere to go but back up into the hammock right?

If the whole point of insulation is to trap dead air, couldn't you use gravity in your favor on the UQ and trap a little more air? You couldn't go crazy but unlike a regular UQ- the insulation is continuous (not hung by a string) and the warm air has nowhere to go except through the insulation.

We all know that whoosh of hot air that escapes a ground dwellers quilt or sleeping bag when we move around- I don't see how an UQ that was installed like a sleeping bag wouldn't work this way and trap the dead air. A sleeping bag shouldn't be form fitting or skin tight to work right, why should an UQ if it is actually attached to the body fabric?

Also-
If I can use Apex 2.5 at 40 degrees on the ground- is that apples to apples in the air? I do sleep warm, but regardless of exactly what works at what temp- isn't 1" of insulation on top the same as 1" on the bottom in a hammock? If anything with heat rising I would (very unscientifically) guess you would need less insulation on bottom.

If a layer of air is wider than maybe 1/2 inch or 1 inch, then there will be air currents which will limit any further gain. If you're more than 1/2 or 1 inch, it won't be any better than if it was just 1/2 or 1 inch. If there are any cracks to the outside, then cold air can blow in and then you'll lose a lot of the insulative value of your insulation, so that has to be avoided.

That's good to hear…
A regular UQ can't solve the "cracks" problem, but a sewn one could.

I think you could take it one step further in my narrow body bridge and find a way to attach the top quilt edges as well- basically a hammock inside a sleeping bag. In my current setup- my elbows are at the edges anyway and there isn't much waste fabric at the spreader bars- I'd have roughly a 60" girth for the bulk of it as opposed to say 30" on bottom and 48" on top.

You can't get too sloppy with the bottom- but a little slop not only solves some of the body contour changes in different positions, but also creates a little extra trapped air, or at least no more than in a typical sleeping bag. Seems like a win-win- plus easier to build.

instead of doing a built in uq, why not just put a ccf pad in the hammock with you. becouse you are no longer using the pad for comfort, and only for its insulative qualities, then a pad may be a better option. you could do like 4 ounces instead of 6 with a sewn in uq. also, hopefully not cheating, you could do a torso lenght pad and then use misc items to pad under your legs, and you will also have the quilt there. pads are much easier to keep in place in a bridge hammock than a gathered end.

>"If a layer of air is wider than maybe 1/2 inch or 1 inch, then there will be air currents which will limit any further gain."

This has been studied extensively in double- and triple-paned windows. In that vertical orientation, a 1/2" air gap is ideal. Larger spaces get worse because of convective air movement. 1/4" performs close to 1/2" and is typical of window spacing so the units aren't so thick and the double-reflection images aren't so noticeable.

Different geometries would dictate different ideal spacings (horizontal gaps, warm surface above versus warm surface below, etc).

CFF pad-
Still debating that option- but it would need to go underneath, for me at least. One bonus in the hammocks in general is that you can slide so easily and change positions. In a gathered end, it wasn't too bad to drop in a pad, but in the bridge I found it pretty well killed my ability to squirm around.

The attachment goal is to save one layer of shell material for the quilt, I think I would get better performance from a layer of 2.5 Apex. I could do a pad sleeve to slip it in from outside, but I think I'd need 3/8 CFF to match the Apex in terms of warmth. If I was outwest, and more concerned about going to ground, I think the CFF would be a better balanced choice. But 3/8" pad, even a 3/4 would be 6oz iirc. 2 yards of apex is 5 oz, 2 yards of argon or M50 is 1.5 oz- so even by weight alone the Apex seems a better choice.

David- Thanks!

I think shooting for a 1/2" gap is ideal- as I move the geometry changes enough that it would be impossible to pick a perfect cut anyway. Playing with a tape a little it seems in my narrow bridge that is the worst case anyway in an extreme position like fetal.

Fascinating to look at Adams "ultralight" bridge. 10 oz is(IMO) quite an achievement. Wouldn't want to be much over, say, 150 lbs using Dynaglide. More peace of mind with a couple of ounces more using 7/64 Dyneema for anyone 200 lb or so.

Pretty cool indeed, definitely got my wheels turning.

Fwiw, I'm 210 pounds and using dynaglide. I'm no math whiz, but you are on four of them (one each corner) so it doesn't seem too extreme to me. I know there is more to it, but I figure at worst you weight is concentrated on one side and split between two. Worst thing is you suffer an 8" fall… ;)

Using .490 poles too instead of .625, that's the big no,no.

Got the pattern dialed in better and went for it on the HyperD 1.0-
Apex to apex- 131 g. Poles- 114g.
Still missing endcaps- .25 oz
final tree straps- 1 oz per side?

210 pound guy in a bridge- with poles- 10.9 oz.

Gotta try it for a few nights before I work on the insulation- but a nice start!

The corner lines go to a single UCR on each side, so the strain is on one line only. Also, the strain on each side is the weight of the occupant when the suspension lines are at the recommended 25-30 degrees from horizontal. So 200 lbs on EACH side and on one line. A more usual "ride height" is 18 inches, not 8. Falling onto a rock can break your back. The 200 lb load on each UCR is for static load, Every movement, wriggle etc. will introduce a dynamic load increase which can easily double the strain. At best,with perfect splices etc. the 1000 nominal BS of dynaglide will be down to 800 or even less. OSHA does not regard x4 as a realistic safety margin for life lines. You may be OK, but do you really want to risk it? Take care.

More info here if you are interested- https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?100307-UQ-sewn-direct-to-hammock-body

But-
15.1 ounces for the hammock with insulation, included a second "torso pad" layer of Apex at the end.
MYOG top quilt- 12.25 oz.
Tarp still in progress, likely 8oz when done.
poles- 4oz.
final suspension- 2oz??
41.35 oz for round 1.
Not bad, not great, but decent first shot.
Plenty of places to slim and trim- guessing an easy 4 oz. and that's no Cuben.

Had a test night last night to the mid 30's and I'm quite happy, best nights sleep in a while. Plenty warm enough for my 3 season needs.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/100307-UQ-sewn-direct-to-hammock-body?p=1359403#post1359403

Sorry didn't feel like retyping- It's post 32 if the link doesn't take you there or new posts pop up.

Long story short- insulated bridge hammock- still sorting out tarp and suspension- but looking like 36 ounces with a sil tarp, or 32 ounces with Cuben…

Hopefully a Jerry inspired quilt is next- because 14 degree's is too cold to use this version. :)