Webcast presentation from Sierra Designs about layering

Derek,

Thanks for the summary. I was curious what they had to say.

I thought the SD team did a good job with their presentation.

I'm a big fan for using layers that keep you warm on the move, but not for sitting around. I've found personally that the puffy jacket is heavily overused. On my PCT thru hike I used a melanzana micro fleece hoody (9oz) and a windshirt for enough warmth for on the go and small breaks. I am not a fan of long breaks, plus if it's raining or something I don't want to pull on my puffy just to sit on a rock to eat a peanut butter tortilla sandwhich.

It can get a little chilly stopping in the high 30's-40's. But I'm usually generating enough heat that by the time I'm cold, I'm hiking again. When the sun starts dropping, set up your shelter, and jump in your bag. No insulation needed.

That works great if you are on a long hike and your entire day consist of hiking and your entire camp time is enough to eat and jump in the bag.

But 95% of people in the outdoors are not in that mode. I'm at the age and point of conditioning where I don't crank out more than 15 miles/day so you have time in camp where you are not active. The puffy is great for camp, and great to extend my sleeping system.

So… different styles are going to command different strategies.

Having only had my first puffy jacket a little over a year, I just wanted to add that in my experience of hiking in the Rockies, I haven't found it very useful in the summer. And before I am burned at the stake let me explain (and also say that for winter/shoulder seasons it's a mighty nice piece of gear.)

In the summer, whenever I get cold it is either because I'm on a peak and the wind is howling, or it is raining. As soon as I can cut out either of those elements, I start warming right up. A puffy in not really a good solution to either of these problems. By carrying my WPB I can throw it on when the rain starts (almost every afternoon in the Rockies) and also wear it around camp where I'm not really active enough to care about how breathable it is. With just a light fleece underneath I can take my WPB down to any temp I'll see in summer months.

I suppose that a windshell should be on my list but once again if I'm I simply resting at the top of the mountain I just climbed I can throw on my WPB and be just fine. Otherwise I'll wear a thin fleece and keep moving.

Breathable or not, I find a WPB and a thin fleece to be the most versatile solutions in my closet.

Is a wind shirt really that much more warmth for the weight?

*For me* a puffy is mandatory. And in the PNW, the rain layer is mandatory.

I like having a fleece mid layer, can't imagine leaving that behind and bringing a wind shirt instead. And four different outwear layers seems excessive.

Obviously many of you love and get a lot of use out of wind shirts — curious: are they in place of or addition to these other outer layers?

A couple of interesting ideas from SD, I thought — particularly

1) The way a backpack's hip belt is covered via the side openings of the new rain jacket. For those who like to keep their camera in their hip belt pocket, no more worrying about it getting wet! Nice thinking there.

2) The dual-purpose intent behind the stow pocket on the down jacket (turns it into a pillow). Again, good thought process behind that.

Most BPL'ers (including me) already use their wind shirts extensively, so that part of their system is not new for us, but for the "average" hiker who has never tried a wind shirt, it could be a revelation.

I like a lot of SD's ideas…my only problem with the products is that they tend to run a bit on the heavier side (new rain suit excepted). Sometimes it may be worth the extra weight to me; sometimes not.

I was hesitant about the need for a windshirt too, but since purchasing a MEC RD windshirt I don't think I've taken it off. I use it to keep mosquitoes off when they are bad, to take the bite off of the wind on exposed walks, and to add extra warmth to my light merino base layer. It's the most useful, versatile piece of gear I own.

My fleece mid-layer (MEC Vega – similar to R1) is the one item that never gets used apart from at camp. While active it's far too warm, even at freezing and when we stop for breaks or we are up in the alpine I'll just throw my Rab Zenon over to trap heat and keep me warm until we start moving again.

EDITED: Went for a 10km hike yesterday with temperatures at 2C. Wore a merino longsleeve and my windshirt and was comfortable all day. If I wore my fleece (R1-type) instead of the windshirt I would have been too warm while walking through the trees, and too cold up in the alpine with the wind.

"I was hesitant about the need for a windshirt too, but since purchasing a MEC RD windshirt I don't think I've taken it off. I use it to keep mosquitoes off when they are bad, to take the bite off of the wind on exposed walks, and to add extra warmth to my light merino base layer. It's the most useful, versatile piece of gear I own."

I was in the same boat. On the East Coast, windshirts are fairly uncommon and so I wasn't very familiar with them. All the West Coasters on here kept proclaiming their merits and I thought they had to be crazy. Turns out I was wrong(about the windshirts – you West Coasters are indeed crazy). Windshirts are awesome.

Ryan

Something my team and i were scratching our head about…

Michael kept saying "semi permeable vapor barrier" I emailed him for clarification but haven't heard back. That can't be what he meant to say can it?

-Tim

yeah.

It certainly sounds like a contradiction. Vapor barriers don't really permeate much of anything, simply due to what they are.

In the building world (and technically speaking), the term "vapor barrier" is considered a Class I Vapor Retarder, and is vapor impermeable (.1 perm or less).

Tim, my assumption is he meant it in a very literal sense. A windshirt is a barrier to moisture, thus keeping you warmer by slowing down convective cooling.

Perhaps, I thought it should have been "semi-permeable wind barrier". He listed the CFM as 5-15 if I remember correctly. A CFM of 5 will not remotely stop vapor passage but yes could stop droplets with proper DWR. Anything under 15-20 will cut wind well where under 10CFM will block it near entirely. Just calling it a vapor barrier to me is exactly the opposite of the desired application of a wind shirt vs a hard shell. The one MAIN area I got confused. Really good thinking on everything though.

One other point of confusion I had…

If WPB doesn't breathe well (true) and rain gear should only be used for rain why does all their rain gear use WPB instead of saving weight and money by just using coated fabrics. Since the breathability of WPB was in question here I was assuming they were moving away from it but it doesn't seem that's the case. Thoughts?

-Tim

>If WPB doesn't breathe well (true) and rain gear should only be used for rain why does all >their rain gear use WPB instead of saving weight and money by just using coated fabrics. Since >the breathability of WPB was in question here I was assuming they were moving away from it but >it doesn't seem that's the case. Thoughts?

Because Sierra Designs wants to actually sell their raingear and almost nobody will buy raingear that is not marketed as WPB? I also don't think that you would actually save all that much as a manufacturer using a standard coated fabric. A lot of the cost is in labor, zippers, ect. I am guessing that the retail on a (good quality) non-breathable coated rain jacket wold be close to $100. Pretty much what the entry level WPB offerings rn.

WPB is not perfect, but it's better than 100% non breathable

If it's raining and you're exercising, you won't get as wet inside

If you're not exercising vigorously it will breath well enough to stay fairly dry inside.

"WPB is not perfect, but it's better than 100% non breathable"

Barely, and not worth the extra cost. At high exertion, it is no better. Put proper ventilation into the design to move moisture and don't rely on the fabric.

1. Dress for two distinctly different scenarios: stopping, and going. Change into your warm "stop" clothes as soon as you stop, and change into your much less insulative "go" clothes as soon as you're on the move. This will keep you comfortable in both scenarios.

The problem is when your "go clothes" are wet. You don't want to put your "stop" clothes on and get them wet too. I'm not going to get naked and change during a snack break. I get cold easily and I would rather not walk all day without stopping.

I've always thought that some kind of waterproof/vapor barrier (water can't get inside it) down puffy with full side vent zips would be useful for rest stops in cold/wet, but it's a really silly idea.

Justin, I often use my wind shirt for that purpose. If I'm taking a long lunch and I'm really sweaty, I put on my wind shirt FIRST, then I put on my puffy. The wind shirt prevents the puffy from getting wet, but the puffy still provides enough insulation to keep me from getting the ol' deep chill.