Failing #3 Zippers?

A topic I've been meaning to investigate. A hiking buddy of mine has the BA Fly Creek UL1, the Platinum I think. The fly zipper teeth split in a few places, away from the fabric strip part. Should have taken a photo.

My own is a Fly Creek UL3 but haven't had problems yet.

Kelly

I use #3 and #5 YKK zippers on all my MYOG projects, what I have found is that the #3 zippers are weak tiny little baby zippers. You really need to baby your gear if you are into the UL type of stuff….. light grade cuben, pertex, 10D, YKK #3 etc. Baby your UL gear and it will go a long way, treat it like normal camping gear and it will fall apart.

Funny.
I use #3 plastic coil-coil zips on my MYOG clothing, my (several) blue summer tunnel tents and my two winter tunnel tents. Snow and ice even. Never had one fail in all the years. We just treat the zips with reasonable respect.

Cheers

I too have other #3 zippers that function well. On shelters and on clothing.
I too have been operating #3 zippers for a while.

This last issue occurred on a zipper that has worked well in the past and works well now.
The 2nd slider on the same door operated well across that same section of coil.

To infer "operator error" is a bit of a stretch.

Please explain the possibilities.

We have found that almost all of the #3 zipper "failures" that we see are a deterioration of the sliders rather than the zipper coils themselves. With grit and dirt on the zippers it begins to erode the inside edge of the slider. In addition, the pulling of the slider away from the coil rather than along the coil to open or close the zipper tends to open up the body of the slider. It doesn't take much to open it up so the zipper teeth won't mesh. You can often use needle nose pliers to squeeze the body shut just slightly to prevent the failure.
When we receive a tent back for zipper repair, we replace all the sliders – not just the ones on the "failed" zipper. We use YKK zippers and sliders but slider problems still occur. You can inspect the teeth on the coil to see if there are any broken teeth but 99% of the time it is the slider that is the problem.
Marc Penansky
LightHeart Gear

Marc: With pliers, do I squeeze the slider vertically (ie. thinner like a pancake) or horizontally?

Dan,
The body is made up two separated pieces (not quite equal halves) that travel along the length of the zipper. These "halves" start to separate. So in your analogy, you want to squeeze the halves like a pancake rather tan along the length of the zipper. Sometimes, you can notice that the separation in the halves is not parallel and you are trying to bring them back to parallel. You don't want to squeeze too much because you can bind the teeth and this causes other problems. This technique is more of a preventive measure than a solution to a "failed" zipper.
Marc

Mark,
Are all YKK #3 zippers and coils the same, or are their "grades" of each?

Thanks

Greg,
There are certainly different materials of construction – plastic, brass, steel, etc. ; and different "styles" like uretek (water-repellent type), but I am not aware of different "quality grades" within a given material, style and size that YKK makes.
Marc

IIRC, it was in a recent rain jacket review video by ProLite Gear in which they stated that the vast majority of the warranty returns they have dealt with over the past 10 years have been with #3 coil zippers. As a result, they much prefer molded #5 zippers for durability.

Ron Bell's Mountain Laurel Designs sells the McNett Zip Care Kit:
http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=98
"Zip Care� Liquid Zipper Cleaner & Lubricant The Number ONE problem with tents and sleeping bags are zipper that fail due to poor maintenance. Almost invisible dirty grit gets caught in the teeth and wears out the slider prematurely and then the zip does not work- if you're lucky it's only the slider then you only need the slider replaced. If it's dirty enough that the teeth get damaged then it's a steep repair bill…Save money and time with a good zipper care product. Zip Care is the ultimate zipper care for plastic, nylon or metal zippers. Unique push-pull brush top enables the cleaner to be delivered between the teeth and physically removes harmful dirt, sand, and salt deposits that can jam the zipper. Available in 2 oz. Blister Pack. For Wet Suits, Dry Suits, Gear Bags, Protective Clothing & Environmental Suits. Prolong the life of your zippers, using the McNett cleaning and lubricating system. Zip Care� is specifically formulated to clean and lubricate plastic, nylon or metal zippers. Patented push/pull brush dispenser removes harmful dirt, sand and salt deposits. Zip Care rinses away after water entry, leaving a unique protective film which lubricates without collecting residue. High performance zippers should be lubbed at least one a year or even each season for shelter zippers under stress for long term reliability. Very Dirty zippers can be brushed clean with an old tooth brush before application is necessary."

^^^

That nice boiler-plate marketing blurb from McNett can be found on any site selling the kit.

Blaming the issue on the customer, and offering a $oultion is clever, but does not address the problem.

I was about to order two MLD innernets….I might have Ron change the innernet to use a #5 instead of a #3. I'm wondering how much weight that would add between the two zippers? If its .5-1 oz, I might do it, but if it adds much more then I don't know…

> Patented push/pull brush dispenser removes harmful dirt, sand and salt deposits.
You will note from this and the rest of the blurb, that it is dirt which is most of the problem. Yup, and the user yanking on the zip roughly is the rest. To be sure, the heavier #5 moulded-tooth zip can handle a lot more mistreatment.

Well, I guess it is up to the user then. If you want to keep the zippers clean and to treat the slider gently (ie bring the rows of teeth together before running the slider along), your zips will last. If you don't, they won't. Your call. Hum … sounds a bit like car maintenance, doesn't it?

Cheers

I've put a lot of miles on a lot of gear, and this is a hot-button topic for me. I'm reasonably careful with my gear and get a lot of miles on "light" gear, but for any light gear item that has a zipper, it's always the zipper that goes wonky first.

I certainly agree that it's generally the sliders, and something that a person can fix by themselves with a pair of pliers and a bit of care (don't crunch the slider sides down too tight …). Most recently I had to do that with my two-person tarp-tent, and that's well and good but I don't carry a pair of pliers on trips, and the last couple days of our last trip my wife and I couldn't fully shut or open the mesh door. Fortunately the bug count was pretty low in early September. But not wanting to compound the problem (and damage the actual zipper itself), we didn't force the zipper open or closed. My local repair shop charges something on the order of $20 per foot to actually replace a zipper, and on most tents it's a pretty long stretch of continuous zipper.

Another tent I've "repaired" the sliders multiple times and just have less and less trust that they're going to be reliable. When it's really buggy out, this is an unhappy feeling.

Two Montbell garments I own have been separately sent in for zipper replacement, fortunately Montbell was great about it and there was no charge. Similarly with O.R. on a rain jacket. In each case, the manufacturer opted to replace the zipper, it wasn't just a matter of fiddling with the pull. And again, I really am not abusive with my gear. I just use it more than most people, I think, and of course in backpacking conditions there can be grit and so forth.

I am increasingly of the opinion that, for me at least, the weight savings for the lighter-weight zippers are just not worth the durability and reliability hit. There's nothing like sleet blowing sideways on a mountain and finding that you as you're pulling up your rain jacket zipper that the zipper is coming right back open again behind the pull.

What IMO would be optimal would be when you order a tent or a jacket, that there's an option to put in a bigger, somewhat heavier (doesn't have to be the really honking big heavy) zipper. At least for tents made by cottage industry companies, I would suggest this as an option.

Okay, end of rant! :-)

Thanks for starting this thread to focus on just one issue raised by Dan's post in the Duomid thread.

Looking at the zips on a Moment, they appear identical to the black #3's sold by Quest, OWF and others. Looking at the manila #3's from Warmlite, they are quite different, even though both are YKK. The Warmlite coils are the same width, but have larger coils, and different sliders, of course. Warmlite also used a #3 YKK tooth zipper for more exposed exterior doors.

So there clearly are differences in #3's, even from the same mfg, and even without the waterproofing that requires different sliders.

For my own MYOG purposes, this means slightly heavier (.02 oz/ft) coils, heavier sliders, and much less zipper footage, although that will take away the convenience of having alternate entrances and the like. Will also take a look at the Warmlite sliders and compare them with the others.

Warmlite also warned against substitution of cords for pulls, saying that the cords put additional stress on the zips. This is not to promote Warmlite. I'm well aware of their quality issues in recent years. But the #3 zips they sold me look a lot sturdier, and are a lot lighter alternative to #5's.

"you want to squeeze the halves like a pancake rather tan along the length of the zipper."

Sweet. My Stratospire 2 is back in business.

Under FAQ , in the TT site :
http://www.tarptent.com/zipper_repair.html

I don't buy shelters or high-use, full-zip garments with #3 zips. In my experience 100% of them will fail in an unacceptable period of time. #3s are ok on anoraks/pullovers, and I prefer #8s on shelters.

I have used #3 coil on pyramid tent. There's a lot of force sideways on the zipper.

After maybe 100 nights, when I zip it up, it started seperating. The zipper pull works fine. I am fairly careful zipping it. I replaced it with a #5 coil.

Since #3 sort of works, probably don't need to go bigger than #5.

Like someone said, it doesn't save much weight.

Now, what about coil vs toothed?

Another thing I was thinking was to put in maybe 3 pairs of ties. If the zipper fails, just use them. Maybe use ties instead of zipper?

I have #3 coil on gaiters. They frequently get jammed up with sand and grit. Currently, I just leave it zipped and take my shoes off to get the gaiters off. I am now thinking either gaiters don't need zipper or #5 would be better.

#3 on vest and sleeping bag. I think those are probably fine.

I really like the Fly Creek UL1 tent–except for the zippers. They've failed on me as well, several times. And yes, I've babied them. I wish Big Agnes would upgrade to a number five or more zipper. Actually, I'd be happy to pay the weight penalty (what, an ounce?) to have a more robust zipper on any tent that I might buy.

I've never had a zip fail on me until now. The fly on our car camping tent (#5 ykk I think,) gets extremely stiff on the last 6" towards the ground so I've stopped closing it completely. Planning on scrubbing it with a toothbrush and maybe adding some Teflon lube tomorrow. Hopefully it's salvageable as the rest of the tent is great. Quite sure its from camping almost exclusively in the dusty Grampians.

Benen

Do any of the cottage tent manufacturers offer a higher number zipper as an option on their tents?

After posting above, I found that BearPaw uses #5 zippers on mid-sized tents and #8 zippers on larger tents like the Luna 4

http://bearpawwd.com/fabrics_misc/fabrics_misc.html#zippers

Must be why their products are consistently overspec'd on weight.