carbon fiber lightning

"Tent poles can be dangerous in a lightning storm."

Can you cite any evidence of this?

"Tent poles can be dangerous in a lightning storm."

You've been watching Bear Grylls or something.

Let's think about this. A lightning bolt is coming from a mile overhead, and it is speeding down toward Earth at something approximating the speed of light. What difference does it make if that last 36 inches is carbon fiber, aluminum, or air?

–B.G.–

All of the well known sources of info about lightning safety, for example http://www.nols.edu/nolspro/pdf/Lightning_Gookin_WRMC2010printmaster.pdf or http://www.wildmedcenter.com/uploads/5/9/8/2/5982510/wms_lightning.pdf

say that a tent pole can generate leaders which attract the main lightning bolt

or even just a tent without pole can be higher than surrounding area

carbon fiber would make no difference

Jerry, none of these sources cite any evidence that tents or tent poles are actually struck with any significant frequency.

[EDIT: I got confused with the links, and I just realized that your second citation is the same WMS paper that I like and mention below – and it does not mention tents or tent poles at all as risk factors or potential sources of upward streamers.]

In principle, any object that protrudes vertically above surrounding terrain can generate an upward streamer. This includes a standing human. Yet, only about 5% of lightning injuries are caused by direct strikes on humans (see the paper below). The vast majority of injuries are caused by side splash or ground current when nearby terrain or a tall nearby object (tree, rock outcropping) takes the direct strike.

Of course, if you pitch a tent right on a ridge or pinnacle, your tentpole is likely to get hit. Don't do that. But everyone knows they should not do that. Pitched in normal terrain, it seems unlikely that a 3-foot tentpole would ever be the tallest object in the vicinity. If 6-foot tall humans are rarely struck directly, I remain skeptical that 3-foot tall tent poles are a significant risk factor whatsoever.

See the link below for the best safety guidelines that I've seen. Rather than listing a whole bunch of things that MIGHT in principle be risk factors, they actually make some effort to evaluate the quality of evidence supporting recommended lightning safety strategies. The most important strategy (with the best supporting evidence) is to locate yourself (and your tent) in the safest possible position in the local terrain – primarily with a view to avoiding being close to terrain/trees that might take a hit and hurt you with side splash or ground current.

http://www.wildmedcenter.com/uploads/5/9/8/2/5982510/wms_lightning.pdf

To reiterate: if you think that your main worry is a direct strike to yourself or to your tent, you need to do some reading. These are NOT the predominant causes of lightning injury.

Your source, which is my second source says "Tents do not provide adequate protection from lightning." but doesn't go into more detail.

I think the best bet is to be in a building or car. Or second best, avoid ridges, flat areas, near tall objects like trees, conducting lines like fences. In a narrow valley or a forest would be good.

Whether you're in a tent with any type of pole or no pole or just standing probably doesn't make that much difference. This is consistent with the quoted sentance above.

Agreed. People should be spending their pre-hike lightning worry-energy making sure that they completely understand how (and why) to get themselves to a safe place in the local terrain. Worrying about what your tent poles are made from is a counterproductive distraction.

> "Tents do not provide adequate protection from lightning."
Yes, but what does this mean?
It does NOT mean that tents are dangerous, or that they attract lightning. Not one bit.
It means that tents do not provide protection – but who ever thought they did?

Cheers

Yup, the context of that sentence is a section that recommends seeking shelter in a large building or vehicle, if available. It's pointing out the (possibly obvious) fact that a tent does not provide similar protection.

When I revived a tenkara rod from tenkara bum the instructions advised not fishing with it (carbon fiber rod) when there was any chance of lightning. Any truth to that?

Um, I'm struggling with why the rod material is the primary concern here. I'd guess that Tenkara are just trying to cover idiot liability, and this has little to do with the fact that it's carbon fiber. If you want to fish during a thunderstorm in a sheltered stream in a ravine, go for it. Flash floods are probably the only thing that might get you. But I trust you know that in a thunderstorm you should not be in or on a lake, and most especially not in or on a lake sticking a long pole in the air, whatever the pole is made of. I suppose sitting on a boat in a lake in a thunderstorm sticking a long highly conductive rod into the air is slightly worse that sticking a less conductive rod in the air, in the same sense that jumping off a 200-foot cliff is worse than jumping off a 150-foot cliff.

"Tents do not provide adequate protection from lightning." is a good comment given that being in a car or building does give pretty good protection, so someone might think a tent would do the same.

The carbon fiber rod comment is good because if your're fishing, you're likely the high point since you're next to a lake. If it was a stream with banks it wouldn't be so bad, but still better to avoid. A non carbon rod would be just the same.

"Individuals should discard metal objects such as ski poles or mountaineering axes to avoid contact burns."

"Tent poles conduct ground current and may generate upward leaders."

Your second quote is from the NOLS paper cited above. In context:

"Tents may sometimes increase the likelihood of lightning hitting that spot if they are higher than nearby objects. Tent poles conduct ground current and may generate upward leaders. Use your understanding of terrain and lightning to select tent sites that may reduce your chances of being struck or affected by ground current."

Again, while the NOLS statement is correct at face value – ANY object that's taller than its surroundings can generate upward leaders and attract strikes – NOLS present no evidence that tents or tent poles IN PRACTICE are actually a significant risk factor. Poles that are 3 feet high are highly unlikely to generate upward leaders (and hence receive direct strikes) unless the tent is pitched in an outrageously dangerous position. Unless NOLS have evidence that upward leaders from tent poles or direct strikes to tents do cause injury with significant frequency, I think they are confusing people by mentioning this as a risk factor.

If, despite best efforts at pitching in a safe place, you get hit by ground current, then it's certainly likely that current will flow through a "frame" type of tentpole (usual for freestanding tents) that connects two points on the ground a few feet apart. So sure, you shouldn't sit there holding on to your tentpoles.

My concern was not about while hiking. It was more towards say 3 am..sound asleep under my tarp and some crazy lightning storm hits. My options are sort of limited. No I can not look for a building or car to get into. No, I don't think I would pack up and scamper away looking for a safe haven. Honestly, I would stay put and ride it out. Hey..I sleep on a foam nightlight pad, lol. I do read plenty (no I don't watch tv..or Bear gylis), and I have read that it's a good idea to get out of your tent and squat on a small rubber pad..yadda yadda yadda. Soooo, I was simply asking if carbon fiber poles would be any more or less conductive? Maybe it was a stupid question..just digging for information. No, it's not my main concern or worry what so ever..

"I have read that it's a good idea to get out of your tent and squat on a small rubber pad"

Where have you read that? I'm not trying to be a dick, but please give citations. Lightning avoidance advice has such a history of ignorance and old wives tales that I think you should be checking sources and evidence for any strategy that you plan to adopt.

"No, I don't think I would pack up and scamper away looking for a safe haven."

This is exactly what you SHOULD do. Not the packing up part, just the scampering away. If you're in a tent at 3am in an unsafe position relative to local terrain and an unexpected storm hits… then forget the tent, you should absolutely get out of your tent, put on warm clothing and a rain jacket ready to hunker down, and MOVE quickly to the safest possible place in the local terrain. Being inside or outside your tent or squatting on something or what your tent is made of is irrelevant – strategy #1 is always to getting yourself to a safe place.

If, on the other hand, you DID pitch your tent in a safe place, then stay in it. Leaving your tent will probably make you pointlessly soaking wet with rain.

You're doing exactly what I warned against – obsessing about the irrelevant detail of what your tent pole is made of, whilst remaining ignorant of primary evidence-based safety strategies. Stop worrying about your tent pole and read the WMS paper [edit: also the NOLS paper cited by Jerry, which has more detail on finding the safest locations].

Links once again
http://www.nols.edu/nolspro/pdf/Lightning_Gookin_WRMC2010printmaster.pdf http://www.wildmedcenter.com/uploads/5/9/8/2/5982510/wms_lightning.pdf

The main relevance of pole material to lightning safety is this: after reading those two papers, have somebody quiz you on them. Every time you get something wrong, have that person hit you over the head with a pole. See whether carbon fiber or aluminum works better.

wildmedcenter said there was little evidence supporting squatting with feet close together

that would be the last thing to try

I'de just go back to sleep if I was in tent

"jumping off a 200-foot cliff is worse than jumping off a 150-foot cliff."

It gets about the same results.

–B.G.–

Of course, that's why I used the analogy.

If it wasn't clear – sitting on a boat on a lake in a thunderstorm holding a fishing rod in the air is likely to get you killed, whatever the rod is made of. Holding a rod made of a relatively non-conductive material is analogous to jumping off the 150-ft cliff.

Sorry I can't quote where I have read things. I have read so many different books, magazines, blogs and posts..I have shelves and mounds and piles of books in my house, my Kindle has over 100 books on it..for me to browse every page and remember where I read something like that would be time consuming. Hence why I didn't actually quote anything/one and hence why I brought it up here asking. If I was stating a fact..then I would provide a source, believe me I would back it up. I have read so many different books and what not on mountain weather and predicting weather..As usual..Some contradiction is expected. To clarify my position..If my tarp is pitched in a "safe" place and at 3 am a crazy storm whips in..would it make much of a difference what type of poles I used to pitch it? I'm not harping or worrying about anything to be honest with you..it was just a general question to see what kind of answers I would get. The simple answer to the question about poles seems to be NO. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

I don't think the answer is that there is necessarily no difference. It's more correct to say that (a) there are no data, because nobody has any interest in doing experiments with tentpoles & lightning; (b) since there is no evidence of large numbers of tent poles getting struck and injuring people, any difference, if it exists, is probably still insignificant as a risk factor.

Lack of experimental data is also the reason that the well known "crouch" position is really just a best guess among experts, with minimal evidence base – as mentioned by Jerry, the WMS paper gives the "crouch" the lowest possible rating as an evidence-based strategy. Nobody really knows how well it works, or whether it's optimal, but given what we know about how ground current works, it's certainly better than lying down. Personally, I can't crouch like that without quickly cramping up, so I sit hugging my kneews with my feet tucked in tight – which I hope pretty much achieves the same purpose of minimizing the spread of contact points between my body and the ground.

Strategies like "sitting on a foam pad", "sitting on a bearcan" etc., have (so far as I'm aware) a similar amount of evidence to back them up as praying.

The one thing that we do have a huge amount of data on is WHERE lightning strikes. That's why the most important thing to learn is where to go to stay as safe as possible. There is a strong evidence base for this. And if you can avoid being near a strike in the first place, it makes all the other stuff moot.

For those who do not work in this field, I suggest you look for an isokeraunic map. This shows the frequency of lightning strikes for different geographical areas. For example, in the U.S., the worst place for lightning is around Orlando Florida.

Where lightning occurs is mostly based on weather patterns and the terrain. The severity of lightning is mostly based on weather patterns, terrain, and conductivity of the soil.

The soil is extremely conductive around Orlando. That's why playing golf out in an open field there when the storm is present is such a bad idea. In contrast, if you were on some rocky peak in Colorado, the soil is not so conductive, but the fact that you are exposed up on a peak is the worst factor for your survival.

–B.G.–

"Select tent sites that may reduce your chances of being struck or affected by ground current. If you are in a tent in “safer terrain” and you hear thunder, you at least need to be in the lightning position. Lying flat increases the risk of injury by ground current.

If your tent is in a more dangerous location, such as on a ridge, in a broad open area, or near a tall tree, you must exit the tent and get to safer terrain before the storm arrives, and stay there until it has passed."

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/resources/backcountry_lightning.pdf

Thanks John, the picture on that pdf showing safe and unsafe locations is nice.

And just to clarify, before somebody once again misconstrues the quote that you put up…
The instruction to "exit the tent" is not because a tent is inherently dangerous – it's because the LOCATION of the tent is dangerous – and with a storm nearby you shouldn't waste time dismantling the tent and taking it with you. You must get yourself out of there urgently, so you abandon the tent and move yourself somewhere safer.

Another urban legend, to my understanding, is that non conductive insulators like rubber soled shoes or tires on a car will shield you from lightning strikes. At least from what I learned at the Boston science museum some years ago. They had an elevated metal cage used in a demo where a member of the staff would be contained while they hit the cage with some significant voltage/amperage. They then explained that the old myth of the rubber tires insulating you from strikes in a motor vehicle was false. It is the surrounding cage of metal that your are contained in the shields you from most electrical strikes.

From a stand point of personal experience I have seen some wicked electrical storms the worst of which were on the shores of Lake Erie at the National Rifle championships and on vacation in Orlando FL. Very glad not to be in a tent in those locations. We also experienced a couple incredible storms in the ADK's and in Wyoming both of which I was not very concerned with tent pole materials. The later however included a very quick decent in elevation and seeking a much better place to ride out the incoming storm. Once settling on the best spot we could find I relaxed and enjoyed the show. With a bit of a sh*t eating grin I said to my wife, relax and enjoy the storm and don't let the thunder rattle you. If worst comes to worst you will never here the one that gets us. :) The lesson learned there was, as others have said, seek a preferred location as early as you can after assessing the direction and speed of the storm and scoot ASAP.

jimmyb